Ask the Roman Catholic -- All kinds of qu

The catholic church moves against a powerful tide of changing social attitudes and a double spear Islamic-fundamentalist protestant  agressive missionary attacks and the church cannot find an answer. I will not talk about Islam since the copmpetetion is obvious, what I will discuss is aggressive fundamentalist evangelical missionaries namely the pentacostals. These people base their beliefs on the primacy of the bible over any "human" interpretation or judgement which is similar to what the catholic church says, but here is the catch, the catolics maintain that only trained priests have the authority to interpret the bible while the pentacostals stress on personal connection between God and man.

I was under the impression that a marriage, in Catholic eyes, is a covenant for life which cannot (should not?) be severed.

Yes it is a Sacrament of the Church, and thus it is done to unite man and woman into one flesh, they become a union rather than retain themselves as individuals.

Annulments appear to be a way out of a marriage though. Am I nit picking or is there really a moral difference between divorce and annulments?

There is a huge difference, in a divorce a marriage is dissolved, in an annulment the prior marriage is considered to have been invalid. The children of an annulment are still considered legitimate since a legitimate marriage took place but it wasn't right.

To give an example lets say I cheat on a test and get found out. I still took the test but it wasn't a legitimate score therefore it won't count for my grade.

Also annulment is far more stringent than divorce. The only reasons an annulment can take place are as follows. Due to consanguinty, due to insanity of one of the members (lack of consent), not intending to remain faithful to the spouse, deceiving by one partner, being held (kidnapped) in a marriage against one's will, failure to follow canon law, and murder of a married person's spouse to allow remarriage.

Mind you dispensations can be made to allow marriages that fall under these requirements to remain valid.

Furthermore, if we already have them assist, why not grant them a formal role as deacons?

If they are all ready doing God's work why do they need a title? Should these women who lack humility and obedience really represent the church's heirarchy. You become a minister to obey and serve, not to demand and command. However I wouldn't be against granting the title of deaconess' to these women, however this title would preclude any of the sacramental abilities that a deacon can take part in.

As of the married priests, the most absurd situation is that the Roman Church will allow married Anglican priests to convert as priest into the Roman rite, wife include. So we already have living married priests!

This has always bothered me and is the reason I believe that the Roman church will allow married priests in my lifetime. I mean it would seem as if there is a loophole but in retrospect that wouldn't be the appropriate way to become a priest. And if you have to use treachery to misappropriate the office then you have no business being a priest anyway.

The granting of dispensations to former Anglican priests though is fully within Catholic teaching, since in a valid marriage a man and a woman become one, it would be utterly contradictory to not allow a priest to continue his mission while denying that same role to his now united wife.

By the way, natural rhythm as contraception only works for some women who ovulate regularly, and it is quite tricky to pull off. It is high risk, and it is like playing baby lottery. Not great if you are poor to begin with and want to keep a family small.

Thank you I couldn't remember what that method was called, lol. Whether it is high risk or not doesn't matter if a couple wants to remain Catholic they must understand that these rules are in place for a reason. As God's name is "I am Who am", so his organ on earth the Church "is what it is". The Church does not conform to humanity's lifestyle, to do so would belittle and offend God. People must conform to God's will in order to gain access to his Kingdom.

The catholic church moves against a powerful tide of changing social attitudes and a double spear Islamic-fundamentalist protestant  agressive missionary attacks and the church cannot find an answer.

I believe the church has found an answer, else it would not retain it's popularity amongst a growing devout youth movement, or a steady stream of converts and reverts.

I will not talk about Islam since the copmpetetion is obvious

Obvious in what  way? Apparently it isn't so because I can't think of this "competition" between Catholics and Muslims.

the catolics maintain that only trained priests have the authority to interpret the bible while the pentacostals stress on personal connection between God and man.

See that is where you are incorrect here, ANYONE is free to interpret the Bible as they wish, except for the Dogma of the church. What exactly are the dogmatic statements of the church well the Nicene creed, the decisions of the Ecumenical councils and the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception. Anything else is open to debate.

Catholics also stress the personal experiences that God has on our lives, it's just the Church understands that human beings are fallible and thus make errors in judgement in regards to faith. That is why the Church exists so that these errors may be corrected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Bible is after all a dated document and thus it takes a living Church to fully bring together the faith.

The Ordinary catholic will find NOTHING in the bible that support the chuch hierarchy, the powers of the pope, the ban of marriage for priests or even the ban of divorce

That may be true, luckily I am not an ordinary Catholic.

As to the Church heirarchy:

1 Timothy 3  1 Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.  2 The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, orderly, given to hospitality, apt to teach;  3 no brawler, no striker; but gentle, not contentious, no lover of money;  4 one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;  5 (but if a man knoweth not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)  6 not a novice, lest being puffed up he fall into the condemnation of the devil.  7 Moreover he must have good testimony from them that are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1  5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge;  6 if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children that believe, who are not accused of riot or unruly.  7 For the bishop must be blameless, as God's steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre

As to the Pope:

Matthew 16  18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.  19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

As to divorce:

1 Corinthians 7  11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

As to the ban on marriage of priests that is a doctrinal issue brought about by politics in the Roman church, many other devotions of the Catholic church allow priests to marry and are completely in union with the Holy See.

Yes, the rate of conversion is not that much now but in the future, many south american countries will become fully or partly protestant.

Ha, that I see is highly unlikely, as the Latin churches are some of the most devout. Catholicism is heavily entrenched in Latin American culture and culture is the last thing to change in a population. I think it's far more likely that Latin America will become non-religious and secular before it abandons Catholicism for Evangelicalism.

Already monasteries are half full and the abstinance from taking the order is rising sharpley. Ireland which not so long ago exported clergy is now importing them from Nigeria and other african countries.

A lack of clergy does not equal a lack of faith amongst the faithful, God calls as many as he deems necessary for the task at hand.

The church has to reform or else.

I agree good thing the Church has been constantly reforming itself into a greater vision of God's revealations on earth.

Originally posted by Al Jassas quoted by Janus Rook Yes, the rate of conversion is not that much now but in the future, many south american countries will become fully or partly protestant.

Edited by Akolouthos - 07-Nov-2007 at 09:16

Hello Janus

Janus,

As far as I know, if you annul a marriage, you make those children illegitimate. The reason for this is that an annulment claims that a marriage never took place. Therefore, those children were born out of wedlock.

And as for not letting female deacons perform some sacraments, I will remind you that deacons under the Roman rite can't perform the two most important sacraments: confession or consecration. They can lead religious ceremonies, but these must lack the consecration of the host, so they are called something like "celebration of the word." So making them deacons should be safe for the most conservatives, but very practical for ministry work.

I know that you say that lack of priest is not a threat to the faith, but the church doesn't see it that way. They have been worried about the waning number of priest for at least 30 years that I know from first hand. And this is the Latin American church that I grew up in. This is coming from the diocesis that produce one of the highest numbers of priest.

The threat of evangelical taking Catholics away is a constant worry Mexico, one of the most Catholic countries in the world. It has been addressed in many ways. Let me tell you two of them.

The first one is that is brought a strong bible study movement, which organizes intense bible study seminars that trains people to debate missionaries with bible verses. I took that one :)

They also embraced the Catholic Pentecostal-styled revivals, where people can safely speak in tongues, have visions, and have seizures within the bussom of the Catholic Church.

The weird think about this is that both practices, bible study and revivals, were considered thoroughly protestant before. And these practices actually were the cause why people left the church in Mexico. So they are offering these new products to keep people there.

Hi,

This is the third time I try to send this post. It got erased twice before. :)

1. I checked the site on the American Chatholic about the children issue, and they elegantly sidestepped the issue claiming that legally the marriage did exist in civil law. Their sidestepping seems to indicate that they are indeed bastards under the eyes of the Catholic Church
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1002.asp

2. The whole Church in Mexico worries about vocations and priest shortages, not only parishes.

3. The fact that the Mexican Church adapts to the challenges of evangelicals means that they are worried and working against the competition.

4. The Roman Church has allowed many forms of worship for a long time. I believe that it works very well. An old crack said that if the world turned Communist tomorrow, the Catholic Church would state that they were always communist from the beginning

5. There are no true "conservative" churches. Each nation has their own unique liturgies at this point, and each nation had their own Roman Catholicism that incorporated local traditions. Even Latin mass is not truly conservative since for many years these were people challenging Vatican II and going against the Church in this respect.

On November 1 I went to a politically conservative Catholic Church. American and Vatican flags adorned the main nave (I had never seen this). The homily was a screed about how conservative Catholic bigots, presumably as the priest himself, are persecuted.

Well, in this service two things happened that ran against what I see as traditional "conservative" services. There was no shaking of hands after the peace prayer. And almost everyone went to take communion. I know that most people didn't confess before mass because the mass was at noon on Thursday, and many there were taking their lunch hour. To me this was a church-wide desecration of the communion, which one is supposed to take in state of grace, unless they changed something in the last 15 years.

Hi, Janus,

Here is the complete answer for our enjoyment :)

5 Does an annulment make the children illegitimate? No. The parents, now divorced, presumably once obtained a civil license and entered upon a legal marriage. Children from that union are, therefore, their legitimate offspring. Legitimate means �legal.� The civil divorce and the Church annulment do not alter this situation. Nor do they change the parents� responsibility toward the children. In fact, during annulment procedures the Church reminds petitioners of their moral obligation to provide for the proper upbringing of their children. Nevertheless, persons pondering the Catholic annulment process do often express this concern about the legitimacy of the children after that procedure. It�s a persistent rumor.

Well, in Latin America there is a shortage. There shouldn't be, but there is. :)

And, come on, the whole parish hadn't committed a mortal sin?