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XianPei - Who Were They, How they looked like?

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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: XianPei - Who Were They, How they looked like?
    Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 11:56
Dear Fellows,

Can we share information and idea on this topic?
I'm really particularly eager to know the origin of Xianpei tribes, their appearance looked like...?  (they looked like a Mongol or looked like with the face of more "western"?

My friend told me that he read a press in a newspaper that in a village near the city  Zhao Qing, in GuangDong province of South China, there are several thousands so called the successors of one of clans of Xianpei.  He told me he see the picture of one or two representatives of the village in the newspaper, they have a high nose and narrower faces...  , although they may have been mixing with some local people in the South.....
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 02:46
The Hsien-pi (Xianbi) were part of the northern non-Chinese peoples, Hu. They took part in the Hsiung-nu confederation after the unification of northern tribes under Moudun. They broke off after AD 91 and eventually eclipsed them. Hsienpi often raided into Han territories as well. They originally were from Manchuria and likely introduced the Cataphract horse into China. Dropping the Hsiung-nu title of 'chanyu' the Hsienpi were the first to label their leaders as Khans. Eventually they served under the Northern Chou.
 
Once the Hsienpi allied with the Chinese to overthrow the Northern Hsiung-nu they ruled Mongolia. It is asserted that the retreating Hsiung-nu fled west. Mixed with local populations and became the Huns in and around the Aral sea. The Hsienpi appear to be ancestors of the Meng Wu, aka Mongols.
 
I have no idea who those inhabitants of GuangDong would be though. 


Edited by Seko - 24-Oct-2007 at 02:48
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 07:55
Tks ! Seko,

Unfortunately, I am still now searching that comtemporary photo in the Chinese Newspaper, once I get it, I will post it or give the web link.

By the way, it sounds Hseinpi appearance was quite similar to Manchurian people, as you say they come from Manchuria.... or they looked like more "western".  This has been what I am most curious to figure it out.   In our Chinese History, the Hseinpi was also called "White Slaves" at that time...does it imply they were not "yellow" skinned people....?

From the historical readings, there are not few Chinese nowadays carry some gene of Hseinpi.  As in North Wei Dynasty, the rulers are all Hseinpi people.  And in Sui and Tang Dynasty, the emperors should be half Hseinpi.   Although these tribes of people already disappeared from the stage of history, their active presence during 1st - 5th Century created a profound effects on Chinese and Mongolian Steppe history.  And so far, I just hope they should have been paid more attention and discussed.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 13:23
You are welcome Xianpei!
 
The Wei were sinisized steppe people. They went under the names Tabgatch, or Toba. They were predominantly of Turko-Mongol stock. Settling in Northern China the Toba were a buffer between Imperial China and steppe invaders. By establishing themselves around Tatung and Shansi, the Toba chief brought the Mu-jung (proto-Mongols) under his domain. Soon the chief took the Chinese dynastic name of Wei. This happened in the late 4'th century. Even though the Toba incorporated the Mu-jung people and picked up Chinese culture they originally were part of the  Hsiung-nu tribes.
 
*EDIT* After going over my sources the Toba Wei were primarily Hsienpi with a secondary class of Xioung-nu elements.
 
As you mentioned the Northern Wei did have a profound impact on Chinese history for they were the first steppers to have created a Chinese state of their own. Eventually they were at odds with the Juan Juan (another predominantly Hsienpi people) and at first allies then subordinates to the T'u-chueh (Kok Turuk). The Eastern and Western Wei were to remain Chinese under the Pei-Chi and Pei-Chou dynasties.
 
Ethnic physical characteristics are relative I suppose. To Han Chinese prior to mixing they most likely looked foreign. To a westerner yet again. I would assume that the cosmopolitian nature of the Steppe brought in all kinds of physical features. Red haired Caucasian types to Trans Caucasian Turanid to eventually those with more Mongolic characteristics.
 
 
 


Edited by Seko - 24-Oct-2007 at 23:55
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 15:53
Hi Seko,
 
Can you share with me how you got that Juan Juan (Rouran) is another predominantly Hsienpi people pls?  (I am unaware of this?)
 
The history records that Hsienpi originated fm DongHu (Eastern Hu) who lived in North East mountains of China .
 
Is it true that Juan Juan is ancestor of Avars , who later raid some parts of Europe...?
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 19:05
The Eastern tribes were called DongHu as you mentioned. Xianbe were from that area (this is more of a label for location of peoples versus ethnicity). The Hsiung-nu were also a Hu people, just not of the eastern branch. When some of the Hsienpi helped create the Toba Wei another half helped with the Juan Juan confederation (steppe tribes). They were not the only race. The Hsienpi like the Hsiung-nu were not just a race of one people. They each gave offspring to many states. However, the Hsienpi were mostly of Tungus stock originally. Later in time did the proper names of Mongols come into play. But that would be a different space and time.  
 
The reasoning I go by is that these Tungus Khans were also different than the Turkic vassals during the Juan Juan reign. The Juan Juan were also serving the Xianbe prior to their own state. By this time the Hsiung-nu and Xsienpi (West Northern tribes and East Northern tribes) were the major peoples of the juan Juan. Yet the leaders were most likely Xsienpi.
 
Who were those tribes that left after the Juan Juan demise and fled west then?
 
The Avars are an interesting story. Some scholars believe that the Avars (given to an Asian tribe in Europe) were one and the same as the Juan Juan. The connection is feeble, since after the demise of that confederation due to the rise of the Turuks, the Juan Juan leaders actually fled to the brethren Western Wei; whom they were often at war with in the recent past. The westward migrating tribes that entered Europe as Avars could not have been the Juan Juan royalty, but could have been a splintered group of steppers that took the opportunity to flee Turk domination.
 
They took the title of Khan with them. This was disputed by the Turks, since those who held power at the sacred mountain in the Altaic range only had that rite. The Turks asked the Byzantines not to ally with those 'Pseudo-Avars'. These Avars were driven west after the defeat of the Hephthalites by the Persians and Turks. Avars were most likely part Hephthalite (White Hun), part Oghur and part Kutrigur Huns. Another interesting twist, perhaps the Turks were legitimate owners of the title 'Khan', especially after the demise of the Juan Juan who had to give up the title. The westward travelling remnant from the Juan Juan confederation of tribes 'stole' the title for themselves hence angering the Turks. Maybe that is why the Turks initially called them fake Avars.
 
 


Edited by Seko - 25-Oct-2007 at 00:38
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 20:53
Thanks for your enlightenment!
 
I also want to know how the story continues when Juan Juan royalty stayed with the Western Wei.  What finally happened to these Juan Juan top leaders?
It seems the original Toba Wei had tried hard to extirpate Juan Juan.  And there were some bloody battles between Northern Wei and Juan Juan before that.  
 
And another question is : before Toba Wei Dynasty began, Toba Xianbei had absorbed half million Xioung Nu's , who did not flee with North Xioung after Han decisively defeated them in  Mongolia.   This much strengthens the Toba Xianbei military power, and had given rise to the later success of establishing North Wei Empire.   Pls correct me if it is not the fact.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 21:51
So far in this story we have the Hephthalites (VarChionites-White Huns) moving into europe and becoming the Avars (not to be mixed with the Black Huns of Attila). The Turks, prior to their own uprising, helped their Juan Juan overlords in battles against the T'ieh-le (Uighurs) who had formed a rebellious Kao-ch'e semi-state. Instead of giving the T'ieh-le back to the Juan Juan the Turks absorbed them into their own federation. Thus stronger than before the Turks also rebelled. With Wei help they defeated the Juan Juan army. The losing  Khan, A-na-kuei eventually committed suicide.
 
So what happened to the royalty and loyal clans who survived such a loss in battle?
 
 Being that I am going mostly on memory since I don't ahve my books handy at the moment I'll leave you with wiki:
 
The remainder of the Rouran fled into China, were absorbed into the border guards, and disappeared forever as an entity. The last Rouran khagan fled to the court of Western Wei, but at the demand of Tujue, Western Wei executed him and the nobles that accompanied him.
 
Little is known of the Rouran ruling elite, which the Book of Wei cited as an offshoot of the Xianbei.
 
Regarding the latter day Xioung-nu peoples being absorbed by the Toba Wei is most likely correct. Ebb and flow was a regular theme among steppers and settled peoples. Many of the Xiong-nu cavalry were put to use by the Hsienpi (an eastern and eventually sinicized settled people). In fact ever since the north and south split of the Xioung-nu the Hsienpi and Chinise emperors often allied to make the division even more profound. Enough to weaken and defeat the Xioung-nu into seperate tribes.


Edited by Seko - 25-Oct-2007 at 00:40
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 13:44
Fortunately, I have successfully searched that news link:

http://www.nen.com.cn/78027946471718912/20070528/2232958_3.shtml

Note:
1. These several thousand MuRong Xianbei descendants fled from their previous the Northern Yan Kindom in present-day LiaoNing province in China.  The Northern Yan  was extirpated by Touba Xianbei (North Wei Empire), yes, another sub-tribes of XianBei federation.   They finally found their new homeland in a village near ZhaoQing City of GuangDong province in South China 700 years ago after several preceding stopover in their desperate fleeing long journey from North to South.  

2. See the tallest guy in the photo, although he had been to great degree assimilated with Southern Hans, you can see he is with high nose, and narrow face, deep eyes.   In the text (Chinese), it says, the reporters can notice easily his eyeballs mixed with yellowish brown color, not in black color.
Also, coupled with the fact that there has been vast contrasts in climates between the South and North East of China,  as well as they live in the countryside for long time,  it would not be strange to see they did not look so "white".

3. With history records, some (not all) scholars believe that MuRong Xianbei should have golden-yellow hair and blue eyes originally in the 3rd~4th century during the 5 Hu 16 Kingdom Period.  The feature of some Caucasian elements, as what Seko has mentioned above.

4. Subsequent to the newest great  discovery of 3-Yan's Ancient Civilizations in early of this year in ChaoYang of Liaoning province (north east) of China, there has been a hot focused event to "call for" anybody who are  posterity suspects of MuRong Xianbei families in the whole China.
See the interesting related web site:  http://www.murongyan.com
(or just feel about it, as this is a web site in Chinese. Sorry!)
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 13:51
I agree that several Xianbei have assimilated into the Chinese genepool however, I would not try to prove that by relying on one or two pictures regarding physical characteristics of a few modern Chinese. Perhaps a more compelling proof would come from a larger sample. 
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 05:03
But we need to note that :-

1. They have the full details of Murong clan pedigree. (shown in the other pictures in that link.)   I believe it is now  undergoing verification process by experts.

2. This Murong Xianbei gentleman is just one of the representative of that village, where there are several thousand of their clans living there long before.

3. Also, the content of news (unfortunately in Chinese) also indicates that some of their ancestor graves with demonstrated related tombstone epigraph were witnessed.
This clan ancestors wanted to keep the original surname of Murong so  that the successors would not have forgotten their origin. (many Murong Xianbei changed their surname to "hide" their origin, as the Touba Xianbei and other enemies did not want to leave them alive.)  For this village people, their leader of ancestors might also think it was at low risks of keeping their original surnames, as they felt more secured after fleeing for so many thousands miles from the North to the South.

4. Regarding the appearance, I like to add that , for example, our Kung Fu Master Bruce Lee, he carries some genes of German.  It is all well known in Hong Kong that his mother's 2-3 older generations  before is German.   But only few Germanic elements was found from Bruce's looking.
Hence, we can imagine how this Xianbei gentleman in the photo  has "evolved " after 700-1500 years mixing blood with Hans or other Southmen.  The Caucasian elements does not dominate conspicuously any longer in his face now.
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