Dacians, thracians, and their stuff.

Yes, you are right.

If you two are going to have an argument  about archeology, prejudices, and so on, please refrain from doing it HERE. it kind of defeats the purpose of this thread.

I somehow thought the accuracy of the information presented in a thread is automatically in the purpose of the thread, but maybe I just have a screwed up view on how knowledge should work.

Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Oct-2007 at 00:17

Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Oct-2007 at 01:44

Well, i will speake more about military organization of dacians, who was quite complex, because they was a warrior peoples, not quite the peacefull ones as Menumorut said. As we know from ones of the first mentions of them, the getian ( dacian ) army consist in a 1/3 raport between cavalry and infantry. Cavalry was armed with bows ( the recurved bow used by scythians as well )and having probably poisoned arows too, with spears and swords. Most probably, do to terrain and vegetation ( rich forests, mountains ) cavalry was used as a sort of mounted infantry as well, beeing able to fight on foot, when necesary. Infantry was armed with swords, shields, bows, slingshots, axes, spears, knives. Later, was used war machines, as balistas, catapultes, or asault ram hamers, for sieges. Swords was from various types, from right persian inspired akinakai type, to celtic type ones, or even gladius ones, in late period, but the main type was <sica>, a one handed curved sword, sharped on inside edge, used in combination with a round, oval or rectangular shield, probably painted in rich colours, and with various motifs on them. A special sword was the more famous falx, in fact a bigger and heavier sica, a two handed sword. Under the rain of arows shot by bows, slingshots and balistas, the infantry atack the enemy lines, until they make contact. This is the moment when falxmen enter in fight ( they must stay cover until then, since dont have shields ). Having that unique sword, they cut the legs of enemies, with hits under shields ( as cuting grass with a schyte ), or use higher hits, and , with the top of sword penetrate of broke the helmets, or try to cut the arms, using the curvature of blade. Most probably they atack in to a nail formation, trying to cut in two the enemy formations, or or broke the legion ranks and shield wall. Even some peoples saw that famous pics with a falx cuting a roman scutum, is little probable that such hits was done often in time of battle because warrior loose precious time trying to recover the sword from shield. The battle flag was the famous draco, a wolf head with a snake body ( some peoples said that even the name, "daci" is related with phrigian word "daoi", meaning wolves ). As well, dacians was probably the only nation ( until the aparition of mongols ) who was able to mount and do important military campaigns in time of winter. Dacians was in fact the only "barbarian" nation who have a kingdom ( even an empire in time of Burebista ), with a single military and political ruler ( the king ), backed by a single religious one ( the great priest ), with an original religion, religion who made them such a fierce warriors. They believe they are imortals, and death means just a change of places, as one who leave this world and go to other world, were supreme god Zalmoxe rule, and everybody is happy, but especially the heroes who die in battle. Dacians was diferent then celts, or germanics, using complex battle manouvres and trying to organize the campaign before the fight, no a simple lets gather togheter and go to meet the enemy to charge against him. They try, in the later times, to copy the roman military system, and never charge indiscriminately against the enemy, as celts, for ex.. They try enveloping maneuvres, ambushes against superior forces, try to lure them into a favourable terrain, use scorching earth tactics and guerrila type atacks and skirmishes, and then, in their condition, began the real battle. Dromichete use scorched earth tactics, but, as well, infiltrate a man in macedonian diadoch Lisimach camp, as a guide, who lead the macedon army in to getian trap. Decebal made a spectaculos move, in first war, trying to cut the roman army back, and logistic suplly lines, in empire himself, far away from the main battle theatre, and made Traian to turn back to resolve the situation. More, he insist to parthian king to open a second war theatre in east, but, unfortunately for both parts ( dacians but parthians too, Pacorus II refuse ). As well, Decebal send some roman desertors in Traian camp, to assasinate him, but, again, unfortunately they was finally caught. Dacians defeate several times the romans ( the only ones, in that times, except parthians, who sacked provinces of roman empire ), and even in Traian wars dacian army know how to avoid a crushing blow, and, even defeated, was not distroyed, and manage to retreat from the batlefield ( in fact, in the second battle of Tapae, dacians retreat because a storm ocur, and a thunder hit their lines, as is see on Traian Column, and from superstition, they believe god is against them, because they venerate the sun, and shot arrows in clouds, in time of storms ). They was the same the only sclavagist european society outside of greek-roman world, but not such developed as romans, slaves beeing mostly foreigners capturated in wars and used as domestic servants in nobles houses, as inferior members of familly, or as royal slaves, used a sblacksmiths, scribs, constructors.etc.. Dacians dont use too much writing, but was discovered trepanated skulls, and medical tools ( the same as one used in roman wolrd ), and their medicine was very apreciated by greeks ( medicine plantes, as well the concept of heal the soul too, not just the body). Dacians priests know as ktistai, or pleistoi make a separate cast, and Josephus Flavius, the ancient jewish historian said tha esenians resemble in a high degree the way of life of dacian priests. About domestic technology, the most interesting discovery was some nails, who dont rust, even after some 2000 years, beeing made from iron with 99.97 % purity, and some silicates alliages who preserve them from rusting. As well, the dacian fortress walls, know as "murus dacicus" was an original design special made to resist the siege war machines atacks ( romans conquer the Sarmisegetuza just after discover the aquaducts who bring water inthe fortress, and distroy them. But the most intriguing fact about dacians ( getians ) is the influence they haved over goths ( goths pretend that getians/dacians are their ancestors, and many antiq and medieval chronicars believe that, or was influenced by such view, especially in places where goths passing by, and is not just about Jordanes "Getica" ). But this post is long enough and i will speake more other time about this.

Mostly from history books ( including military history ones ). Since i am a huge fan of ancient history, and especially of our ancient history, i read all i find about dacians.

First, the source is a TV show i saw sometime ago, at public television. They show the nails, and how was studied at a specialized institute on Bucharest ( at Nuclear Physics Institute, if i remeber corect ), to see their composition. I saw there is something on internet as well, but dont know too much about them now, i believe thy are on ones of history museums.  As for dacians compared with other "barbarians", the same Strabon said that Burebista made a "powerfull state", beeing feared even by the romans; so he was a ruler of a "state", meaning an organized society at other level then tribal one, having one single ruler, baked by a religious single one, making coins ( famous, <koson> gold one, and a very well replicas of roman silver <denarii> ) in workshops in Sarmisegetuza area ( royal ones ), trying to impose a monetary unity over the country. As well, as Jordanes said, for the first time was elaborated and write an unitar code of laws ( one of them who probably exist into a form or other ) the < belagines >. They have too a capital, Sarmisegetuza, sourounded by an uniq system of mountain fortifications to protect her. And, a greek inscription for that time name Burebista as "the first and the greatest of all thracian kings". The same Strabon said that after Burebista death his <kindom> was split in 4, and then 5 parts, more powerfull beeing one ruled by great priest Deceneu in what is called today Transilvania. As well, Decebal rule over a kingdom ( but smaller then Burebista ones, probably not able to reunite again all parts) in the same fashion, with king as military/politic ruler, and great priest ( named Vezina ) as religious ruler. They have state workshops, and the cantity of iron objects found in Sarmisegetuza area is one of the bigest in Europe, rivalizing with ones from Roman empire. As well, the amount of treasure centralized by king was huge. Thats are the reasons to say that Dacians was at other level of organization then other so called "barbarians", having a "state", ruled by a central autority ( a dual political religious one), they have even a monetar unity ( tied finaly at roman monetar system, as it hapened today with euro, or how it was not long ago in world with dollar ). Was even found a sort of military training camps ( probably under influence of roman advisors, payed, received do some treaties, or captured in wars ), who show a direction for a unified military training as was seen on roman legions. Dacian kingdom was a young one, and dont have time to develope at a much higher level, do to roman invasions, but was, for sure, at a much higher level then celtic or germanic tribal unions.

diegis, who was behind that show? TV shows are not usually the recommended way to source an extraordinary claim (like a nail which does not rust for millenia).

Edited by Chilbudios - 24-Oct-2007 at 15:56

Menumorut I've already estabilished I won't discuss with you history topics again, so unless your points will be addressed to me by some other forumer interested in the topic, I will not answer to them.

Edited by Chilbudios - 24-Oct-2007 at 16:58

You're using second person pronouns (e.g. "your"). Come on, ignore me as I am trying to ignore you.

Did the dacians make any particular large societal or military adaptations to their perpetual enemies, such as the romans, or did they generally stick to more traditional practices?