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Topic ClosedBulgarian origins
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Poll Question: Bulgarians =Thracian descendants?
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11 [16.92%]
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londoner_gb View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 20:43
Do You agree with Dr Mayer's ideas above?
Especially that:"The LITUANUS (1997) article also describes the non-Dacian Rumanians as a Carpathian people who quickly romanized linguistically to gain Roman support against their Baltic masters (the Dacians)."


Edited by londoner_gb - 09-Oct-2007 at 21:25
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Not quite. I agree that Thracian was somehow related to Baltic as the numerous parallels with Lithuanian and other Baltic languages prove but it was not just a variant of Baltic because after all, we have texts in Thracian in scriptio continua which are virtually untranslated (and assuming one of the proposed translations is true, we have no confirmation for it and certainly it doesn't make any sense in any Baltic language). I agree, besides being in a scriptio continua there's another layer of difficulty that is a conventional Greek alphabet - we are not sure how the Greek vowels were used to illustrate Thracian vowels, we are not sure how all the sounds of Thracians were represented in Greek alphabet.
 
A good example on little significance the number of cognates may have (and particularly loans) is the English - French pair. Even English has an impressive number of French loans, it is still a Germanic language. Finding cognates it gives a certain type of relation but it's not always a close one, of languages very alike.
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 21:13
Chilbudios..Your point is somehow 'lost in translation'!Wink
As my grouping shows/as intuitive as it was I must be honest,supported by randomly found sources/ We were in the eastern branch with couple of germanic extinguished tongues as well!I dont know why You stick with minor things and refuse to see the global picture...Guys like Mayer already have done that for You!LOL 


Edited by londoner_gb - 09-Oct-2007 at 22:01
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 21:42
 To keep up with somebody's scrutinising attitude I will add that because of the prostracted in time dwelling of the Goths in the South-Eastern area  phonetic influence inevitably happened in the sence that despite being germanic words they must have been pronounced according to the eastern rules for shifting...And sorry for calling the old prussians germanics..it was rather from present days point of view...Thats my explanation for saying"two extinguished germainc tongues" Wink;
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Posts: 1900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 22:23
Actually your "randomly found" sources do not support your view that Gothic, Slavic, Baltic and Thracian formed some sort of a group. The group consisting of Slavic, Baltic and Thracian is a whole different thing (coming to my initial objection, they are all Satem languages, btw!) and in Duridanov's view is  linguistical reality of 3rd millenium BC (thus with no connection of the formation of Bulgarian people and language in 1st millenium AD). Mayer proposes a fringe theory (climaxing with Romanians learning Latin to fight their Baltic masters!!) that Thracian and Dacian are actually a variant of Baltic - and you can check the theoretical framework Harvey Mayer proposes at lituanus.org and realize that he denies the Balto-Slavic group: http://www.lituanus.org/1981_1/81_1_05.htm or that he believes Slavic to be a Balticized Albanian: http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm. I think you should study better your sources before invoking them to defend your claims, because not only that they don't, but they also support other strange ones.
 
The influences on Gothic were not that large to include them in such a "group" (and the migration of the Goths is also in the first millenium AD, thus totally unrelated with Duridanov's grouping).


Edited by Chilbudios - 09-Oct-2007 at 22:25
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Posts: 10226 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 23:32
not to forget mentioning that Starthe oldest bronze mines in the worldStar are found just 10 km from there.
 
Bronze is 90% copper and 10% tin, that alloy, to my knowledge, doesn't exist in nature.  Syria had mines which contained both ores separately but under normal conditions some tin would become mixed, producing a harder copper. This was discovered about 4,000 bce.
 
 
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 23:34

 -Chilubidios - From the very beginning my point was to show that Thracian was more related to its Northern neighbours rather than with Greek..and not to go into that much detail...For my narrative if Russian is more related to Baltic rather than to Albanian or vice versa is of no importance!

 
 


Edited by londoner_gb - 09-Oct-2007 at 23:35
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Posts: 1900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 00:01

I have not said Thracian was closer to Greek, only that there are parallels between Thracian and Greek (Duridanov acknowledges few of them) and some of them are not just simple loans, but parallel IE evolutions.

Mayer's claims do not affect only Russian, but also Bulgarian, because let's not forget it is a Slavic language!
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 00:12
Originally posted by red clay

not to forget mentioning that Starthe oldest bronze mines in the worldStar are found just 10 km from there.
 
Bronze is 90% copper and 10% tin, that alloy, to my knowledge, doesn't exist in nature.  Syria had mines which contained both ores separately but under normal conditions some tin would become mixed, producing a harder copper. This was discovered about 4,000 bce.
 
 
 Actually I am talking about Copper mine from 4000BC
Beneath is a link about the Neolithic dwellings in the same area:


Edited by londoner_gb - 10-Oct-2007 at 00:15
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 19:14
Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by londoner_gb

Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by londoner_gb

Nice answer londoner_gb. I didnt knew that.
 
Originally posted by londoner_gb

[QUOTE=akritas]
You make circles in an pointless arrgument. The question was.... why the "medieval" Bulgarians  not considered themselves "Thracians" when establish the Bulgarian Empire ?
 
 

The Greek historian Strabo describes the Thracians living in twenty-two tribes. [6]

Josephus claims the founder of the Thracians was the biblical character Tiras, son of Japheth:

Thiras also called those whom he ruled over Thirasians; but the Greeks changed the name into Thracians. AotJ I:6.
 The names the different Thracian Tribes gave themselves is one thing,the names givent to them by their different neighbours is another...
Especially those dwelling in the steppes and moving more frequently...Let us remind the case with Koubrat's subjects known at the same tame as Onogurs and Bulgars...
With the same logic I can tell that Danaians,Acheans and Hellenes means 3 different peoplesLOL
This is not answer in my question. Medieval Bulgarians in theirs writings or as administrative term never mentioned the word Thracian.
[QUOTE=Anton][QUOTE=akritas] And my last question,  since the other is still unanswerable,  was or  is  any serious scholar or prestigious academaic community (e.g. university)  mentioned en passant that Bulgarians were desecents of the ancient Thracians ? Smile
 .... Then you ask me to show you that Bulgarians (or Bulgars) declared continuity with local population and I demonstrate (although without the source, but I can do it if you wish) that they sieged "fathers cities" and you are unsatisfied again because you want me to show you something from the sort of "we are descendants of the Ancient Thracians", although Thracians never used this word describing themselves. Third you show your ignorance claiming that there is no a single source where Bulgarians are called Thracians and after you realize  that you are not right, again you make me responsible for this. Gosh, man! I wish I would have your way of discussion. Dead 
 
 
You said that Thracians never used the word  "Thracian" in order to describing themselves. Byzantines when they had the provision under theirs rule, they used it.I sait it before and you ignored it. Medieval Bulgarians never used it.!!!
 
Akritas I bet that when You watch Westerns You keep asking yourslelf why the 'indians' dont call themselves 'Indians' but "Apaches","Sioux" etcLOL
Or why Nicolas Sarcozy never calls his country "Gaul" despite that this is the way Greeks call it!! Macedonia and Thrace were incorporated for quite long periods into the medieval Bulgarian state but for what hell should the Greek names be used?! Are the Bulgarians Greeks?!!
macedonia was "Kutmichevica" in Bulgarian and Thrace was "Zagora"/as my town's nameSmile/..Macedonia was also referred as the"Lesser land"/Dolnata zemia in bg language/...Symilarly all Bulgarian lands North of danube were called "Beyond-Danubian Bulgaria/instead of Dacia or Walachia/  Transilvania was Called"Sedmogradsko"-The land of the Seven Cities etc...With the same logic I could ask You why did You  not use our versions????LOL
Something like-"Oh,Inever seen the name "Kutmichevica" in a single Greek document"! therefore they have nothing to do with that part of the Balkans!Cool


Edited by londoner_gb - 10-Oct-2007 at 19:31
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Posts: 8595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 19:32
Originally posted by londoner_gb

Originally posted by Giannis

Originally posted by londoner_gb

 
  2. Try to find an answer to the following questions:
a/ What origin is this guy from?/ it is clearly said at the very beginning of the film/
b/Where did he go?
c/What did he do there?
d/Did he return?
e/Did he have his kingdom?!
  Only then shall You see who the real Bulgarians are!
 
a. Cimmerian
b. To find the snake-dude's kingdom who killed his parents
c. He went to take revenge from the snake-dude king who killed his parents.
d. 1984 in Connan the Destroyer
e. Didn't he take the bad snake's-dude kingdom?
 
Bulgarians, and myself have a really good taste for movies!!!
I was rather talking of Conan the Barbarian...
1.when he was enslaved it is an allusion to the Cimmerian/Bulgarian/ incorporation into the Hunnic empire
2.When he went East to learn from the old Mongol man is depicting the wanderings of the nomadic Thracians-Cimmerians-Bulgarians through Eurasia and contacts with the East
3.His obsession with having/or rather regaining/ his kingdom was at the end accomplished!
 
You dare to diffuse the geneology of Conan. Your ulranationalist zeal has not only clouded your revision but your historical revismism has distorted with, monumental proportions, the epic saga of Conan the Barbarian. Disgracefully you take Robert E. Howards masterful fictionall character as your own. This is an utter nonsense
.
 
 
Look the this map of the Hyborean age. What make-believe country that borders Conan's homeland portrays Bulgaria? The Turanians and Hyrkanians do fit the description of the Hun. Heck, maybe you even fantasize that Conan was a Bulgrian. Yet, with your Aryan knowledge of everything Bulgaro-thracian, I am sure it would not be a bother for you to share with us the very book and page number where Robert E. Howard supports this claim of yours. You know, your notion that Cimmeria is Bulgaria. Please enlighten us. Also, forget for a moment that Conan was portrayed as being a Celtic warrior from Howard's Gaelic ancestry.


Edited by Seko - 10-Oct-2007 at 19:33
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Cimmerians=Thracians=Bulgarians!..While Robert E. Howards is just an author of fictionWink

Edited by londoner_gb - 10-Oct-2007 at 20:08
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There is a theory that the Cimmerians were Bulgars. According to the ancient "History of the Monk Spiridon" and to the "History of Zograf" (Zograf Monastery), the Cimmerian king Koled had two sons Brem and Bolg. After a war with the Scythians, part of the Cimmerians migrated to the west, where Brem conquered West European lands; the Celts and the Brythons became Brem's successors. The other part of the Cimmerians migrated to the south, where Bolg's tribe resided on the Balkan Peninsula . Bolg's capital was discovered after archaeological excavations near the town of Kazanlak in what is now central Bulgaria.-Thats 10 miles north from my home town-Stara Zagora!
 
 
   What do You say to that!!!!CoolApproveWinkTongueClap


Edited by londoner_gb - 10-Oct-2007 at 20:05
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Posts: 8595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 20:25
Originally posted by londoner_gb

There is a theory that the Cimmerians were Bulgars. According to the ancient "History of the Monk Spiridon" and to the "History of Zograf" (Zograf Monastery), the Cimmerian king Koled had two sons Brem and Bolg. After a war with the Scythians, part of the Cimmerians migrated to the west, where Brem conquered West European lands; the Celts and the Brythons became Brem's successors. The other part of the Cimmerians migrated to the south, where Bolg's tribe resided on the Balkan Peninsula . Bolg's capital was discovered after archaeological excavations near the town of Kazanlak in what is now central Bulgaria.-Thats 10 miles north from my home town-Stara Zagora!
 
 
   What do You say to that!!!!CoolApproveWinkTongueClap
 
Originally posted by londenor_gb

 Cimmerians=Thracians=Bulgarians!..While Robert E. Howards is just an author of fictionWink
Oh I love a good tall tale when I hear one. Let me pile on some logs for the campfire first. Before you accidentally throw old Mr. Howard into the flames though, who do you think created the fictional character known as Conan? Uh Huh!
 
Regarding the original and historical Cimmerians that lived around the Black sea and evicted by the Scythians, well you have omitted a pertinant part of that copy/paste job from your wiki arguementRolling%20Eyes:
 
Very little is known archaeologically of the Cimmerians of the Northern Black Sea Coast. They are associated with the Srubna culture, which displaced the earlier catacomb culture (2000-1200 BCE).
 
Yet somehow you want us to believe in your glorious theory that bridges 3,000 that the Cimmerians were direct ancestors of the Bulgars.
 
 
How about them apples!Wink


Edited by Seko - 10-Oct-2007 at 20:26
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 Your question contains the answer! I will further add that while Mr Howard is descendant of Brem's conquered peoples/kelts/  I am descendant of Bolg himself!ClapCool

Edited by londoner_gb - 10-Oct-2007 at 21:05
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Heck even that link from wiki I provided says that the Cimmerians were associated with a thing called a Srubna culture. So I look up Srubna, lo an behold, they were cultural ancestors to the Khazars and Kipchaks. Just like the Bulghars! Kurtigurs and On Oks!
 
So how are them apples? Tasty?


Edited by Seko - 10-Oct-2007 at 20:33
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 20:38
Originally posted by Seko

 Your ulranationalist zeal has not only clouded your revision but your historical revismism has distorted with, monumental proportions, the epic saga of Conan the Barbarian.  
You know, your notion that Cimmeria is Bulgaria. Please enlighten us. Also, forget for a moment that Conan was portrayed as being a Celtic warrior from Howard's Gaelic ancestry.
 
Closeness between Cimmerians and Thracians was pointed by Russian historians Vernadsky ("History of Russia", chapter II) and Rostovcev (citation in the samebook). As for the story about Bulgars and Cimmerians -- you can find it in Procopius (which was at least geographically true if you remember where Bulgars lived at time of Procopius). So, londoner's idea is not revisionism but just, sort of speak,  "rare point of view" Wink
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Posts: 196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 20:49
Originally posted by Seko

[
 
Yet somehow you want us to believe in your glorious theory that bridges 3,000 that the Cimmerians were direct ancestors of the Bulgars.
 
 
Seko I have personally read both books/Spiridon's and the "zografska istoria"/I could paste You a link but I doubt that You understand Old Bulgarian..I will check for english translation..
 Do You know which is the oldest Bulgarian song and what does it say?!Star
 It goes:"Oy Koledo moi koledo rodilo se e Boje Chedo!" in english it means:"O Koleda my Koleda the God's son is born!!" Clearly depicting the birth of Koleda's son Bolg!
With the christianisation of the Bulgarians the song has turned into
a Christmas praise song but dont we have many such examples?! of incorporating previous pagan figures into the christian faith?!
By the way Koleda and Bolg may well have been deified by their subjects...I have already talked about symbols and archetypes-like the Thracian-Bulgarian lion symbol-see further up our topic...this one is my second example-Apraise song about our First rulers preserved through the millenia in a song!!!
 
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Originally posted by Seko

Heck even that link from wiki I provided says that the Cimmerians were associated with a thing called a Srubna culture. So I look up Srubna, lo an behold, they were cultural ancestors to the Khazars and Kipchaks. Just like the Bulghars! Kurtigurs and On Oks!
 
So how are them apples? Tasty?
Seko sorry but the ancient authors confirm that the autochtonous peoples in the balkans were conquered by a horsemen people from the north and it happened well before the arrival of turanics in the Crimean area!!!!
 Most of West Europeans labelled themselves "Descendants of the Trojans"Unhappy after a story not more reliable than Howard's!!! And You are doubting mine -supported by ancient historians,Renaissance authors.Bulgarian folklore and archaeology!!!
 
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Posts: 3113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 21:32
Originally posted by Anton

[
 Closeness between Cimmerians and Thracians was pointed by Russian historians Vernadsky ("History of Russia", chapter II) and Rostovcev (citation in the samebook). As for the story about Bulgars and Cimmerians -- you can find it in Procopius (which was at least geographically true if you remember where Bulgars lived at time of Procopius). So, londoner's idea is not revisionism but just, sort of speak,  "rare point of view" Wink
 
It's nothing surprising in the similarities between Cimmerians, Skythians, Thracians, Dacians, Phrygians and Lidians.
 
Apparently all those tribes were in a very close contact. Cimmerians escaped in Minor Asia and Balkans, Skythians often invaded Minor Asia and Balkans as well Cimmerians.
 
A good example is the famour Skythian hat, which is identical to a so called Phrigian hat, which became famous in Europe  during the French revolution.
 
For example:
 
Phrygian warriors:
 
 
 
Skythian warriors:
 
 
 
Thracian warrior
 
 
 
As you can all the above had very similar appearance, this is very natural due to the close interactions and intermingles between all those groups.
 
Herodot, if I am not mistaken, wrote that Cimmerians and Skythians spoke the same language. Cimmerican on the other hand, settled and dominated in Minor Asia when Skythians replaced them in the Northern Shores of the Black Sea
 
However, Procopius story can't be credible. He tried to trace the ancestry of nomadic Bulgars (who where Turks) to Cimmerians, which is wrong.
 
Apparently he just used the famous antique name to create a valid explanation of the origins of Nomadic Bulgars. It actually was done quite often by the Byzantinne chronicles, who, for example, liked to call ancient Russians "Skythians"; and there are many other examples like that.
 
This kind of fake geneologies still appear in our days. For example, in the 1920th there was an attempt to trace Eastern Slav's history to skythians. Allegedly, some scientists found "ancient Slavic pagan book of Veles" where the history of Skythians was described as the history of Eastern Slavs.  Unfortunately, it was only an awkward set up. The book of Veles never existed in real history.
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