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The Power of Prayers? |
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Northman 
Tsar 
Suspended Joined: 30-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4262 |
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 Topic: The Power of Prayers?Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 13:59 |
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A little background ... A little 3 year old girl, lets call her Joyce, was hospitalized on May 31. She had what her parents believed was a seizure, but the hospital quickly deteremined that Joyce had a very serious heart issue. Something called restrictive cardomyopthy. It is an advanced form of this congential disease. The only soluiton is a new heart. During the next month, family and friends could follow the ups and downs of her condition through daily journals from her parents on a special website, where people also could extend their thoughts, prayers and good wishes for the little girl to her and her family. I have never seen anything like it. During that short time, from June 8'th to July 17'th, 75.560 people visited her website - 2.409 entries in the guestbook - all filled with prayers and words about even more prayers from people and congregations all over the US. Obviously, the prayers were not heard.... and it left me wondering about a few things. - Wouldn't God have heard all these prayers - how big a cry does it take? ~ Northman
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gcle2003
King 
Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
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Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 14:15 |
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Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest: Edited by gcle2003 - 29-Sep-2007 at 14:15 |
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rider
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4664 |
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Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 19:22 |
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I would say, though not studied in theology or anything that:
While God hears prayers, he can not interfere with faith. All those prayers do, is grant the person a peaceful life and safe passage to another world. |
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ulrich von hutten
Tsar
Court Jester Joined: 01-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 3638 |
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Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 20:05 |
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A serious issue, indeed. Once, educated as a catholic, i asked a priest a question that is close to yours.
Why God doesn't answer all this prayers of the victims of the wars around the earth.
He said, it's difficult to understand for a simple man, but its a tryout for us humans.
A tryout, i asked, a tryout over thousands and thousands of years ? Is god deaf or blind? A tryout for such a long period and he has no answer.
How long will this tryout last?
The priest said: "My sun, it takes as long as it pleased God."
That's too long for a short human life. Sorry, priest and sorry God, obviously we have to answer this prayers. With our language and with our options, as long as God takes his hibernation.
I was 13 then or even 12. But from that moment i realised that God and I didn't know the same world.
Today, after having kids myself, my point of view has changed a bit, but i wouldn't count on God if it's going to be difficult.
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Paul
General 
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
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Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 20:52 |
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Muslims pray the most out of anyone in the world. Europeans pray the least. So when there is a penalty shoot out between a Muslim and European side, there should only ever be one winner.
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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pekau
Caliph 
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 03:38 |
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It's truly a mystery. I was maybe thinking that praying is somehow linked to the strong frequency of wavelength or something... |
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Comet
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 24-Sep-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 06:49 |
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You know, in some ways, I would agree with this statement. I think we can take it a step further and actually say that the belief or faith of an individual...that confidence that someone is watching over us and willing to take care of us...can aid in changing the psyche. I know this isn't the greatest analogy, but take a look at what happens in sports. Many "underdog" teams find ways to win when they are consider long shots. When interviewed after the game, they would most likely tell you that "we believed in ourselves from the beginning"...or something similar. I agree it's a bit of a mystery, but I think your wavelength comment might be more of an explanation than one might think. |
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History is never clear cut...there are hardly any absolutes
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pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 06:53 |
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Of course, we could always use String Theory to justify any questions. |
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ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain 
Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 07:28 |
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I know its odd to turn to a comedian for such complex matters, but I can't
resist quoting George Carlin at this moment:
"I say fine, pray for anything you want. But, what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan. A long time ago, God made a Divine Plan, gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along and pray for something. Well, suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan. What do you want him to do, change his plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? Its a Divine Plan, whats the use of being God if every run-down schmuk with a two-dollar prayerbook and come along and fu** up your plan? And here's something else, another problem you might have. Suppose your prayers aren't answered, what do you say? Well, its God's will, Thy will be done. Fine, but if its God's will and he's gonna do what he wants to anyway, why the fu** bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me." |
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
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pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 07:37 |
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I can kind of see the point. Pray is not to have your wish granted. Pray is to build the relationship with God. If you want to have wish fulfilled, hunt down faires and kidnap Santa Claus.
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Northman
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Suspended Joined: 30-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4262 |
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Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 13:17 |
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Yes - people pray for a number of reasons, and their own relationship with God is certainly one of them. However, I think most religious people also pray for everything they might hold dear, children, family, friends etc. Ie. 3 churches in the US had me on their prayer list a couple of years back when I was sick.In such a case, I can appreciate that God doesn't have time for an old bugger like me, so be it - but a little girl?
And what motivates people to continue to pray beside the reason in the quote gcle posted, when the prayers from thousands of people couldn't be heard?
(if anyone is interested in seeing the site about Joyce, PM me)
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Gharanai
Arch Duke 
Afghan Empire Joined: 26-Jan-2006 Location: Afghanistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1515 |
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Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 20:53 |
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Well I would say it basicly depends on your belief and how you see the result of the prayers, as dear rider mentioned in his post that the Faith once written could not be then changed, so we all pray to Almighty only and only for an ease when we are in a bad condition, I really would like to know how many people are there around who pray to Almighty Allah in order to thank him for the good conditions that we have in our lives?
I am sure there won't be many, the only time most people remember Almighty is when they are in a bad situation, so in order to have a reply from Almighty and see his mercy on easing the situations we face (the situation could not be changed but just a bit eased), we shall also remember him in our good times and thank him for what he has granted us.
As far as I am concerned I would say I have faced many many difficulties in life and am thankfull to Allah that when ever I have asked him I have been granted sometimes soon and sometimes a bit late, and that's why I don't forget him in my good time as well.
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ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 01:24 |
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Well some people see it as talking to God, and some would see it as talking to yourself. I just meant to say that you can pray if you want, just don't expect it to change reality a single bit. And most people pray for tangible things rather than to "build a relationship with God". When people pray they mostly speak about themselves and things that they want to be protected or granted. When has anyone said "hey God, how are YOU feeling, old friend?" P.S. Why would you want to kidnap Santa?!? The guy is a hero  Capturing a fairy might be a different story... some fairies are just cute girls with wings 
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
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Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 04:20 |
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As usual I agree with Gharanai, and the quote from ArmenianSurvival had some important points too. Now I have a slightly different experience in these matters, I have only every prayed for a couple of things, and have met with a 100% success rate. Now that is actually quite scary, and so I stopped asking for anything at all unless absolutely necessary. Now I only thank God for what I already have. If God grants you what you desire it is like a favour, you are even more indebted to God than were before*. God will only grant you a favour if you need it, if you really deserve it, and if you will become a better person because of it. If you go around praying for everything your not going to get anything. It is not about personal gain. If you ask for things that are contrary to the "Divine Plan" you not going to get it. To ask for something in your prayers is to throw yourself on the mercy of God for a decision. If the Lord of Worlds decides that you, a very small part of the mechanism, deserves it, then you'd really better be prepared to repay the debt with piety. As Gharanai points out, if you never remember the Almighty in the good times, and thank him for what he has already given you, your unlikely to get anything when you ask for it in the bad. As for the case quoted, if God was to save every person from death the world would be impossible to run. Obviously people must die, and that includes little girls. The question is not "Why didn't God save this girl?" The question is "Why would God wish to save this girl?", which is of course unanswerable. Remember that God gave her the Ailment as well.
And why did you decide that yours was right? I would have assumed that my world was wrong, and God's was right. *yes, I know infinity + 1 still = infinity. |
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Northman
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 30-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4262 |
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Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 09:44 |
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............. If you ask for things that are contrary to the "Divine Plan" you not going to get it. Obviously people must die, and that includes little girls. .......... Remember that God gave her the Ailment as well. When I summarize the above, I think I understand why the prayers for Joyce (or anyone for that matter) were not heard... Basically, what you are saying is, The Allmighty God created a divine plan called faith, and nothing can change that plan - everything is pre-planned and everything happens because God decided it to happen way back. We should sit idle and do nothing (not even pray) to help anyone in distress or danger. That would be to interfer with His divine plan and in best case it wil be ignored, but might even displease Him that we are so arrogant to question His divine plan - to ask for alternatives. So I guess this also answers my last question - Billions of people continues to pray for their loved ones in spite of not being heard, because they don't understand this? @Omar Why on earth did you stop praying for favors because your prayers were heard? Wasn't that what you hoped for?If I had those powers, I would make another prayer to help the millions of children all over the world who suffer and die from hunger, deceases, exploitation etc. etc.
Don't be scared - help the children.
Edited by Northman - 01-Oct-2007 at 09:46 |
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Eondt
Earl 
Joined: 23-Aug-2006 Location: South Africa Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
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Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 11:07 |
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Hi evryone,
I enjoyed reading everyones views on this difficult topic. My own point of view is not too different from what has already been said.
I think that looking at the Lord's prayer you find that Jesus was teaching us to pray not only in a way that is appropriate but also the appropriateness of what you were asking for. Accept in your prayer that God's will is above all else. Give thanks for all your blessings, materially and spiritually. Ask for the strength to resist temptation, ask for forgiveness for your sins and for the strength to forgive others.
Like any parent, I don't believe God minds us approaching Him with our problems and request. I don't think that asking for someone to be spared (like with this girl) is wrong, we must just accept that it is a request that may not be in God's plans. For instance, who are we to be granted that the girl lives if her death served a higher purpose. Perhaps her death touched someone in a special way, saved someone. Also remember that, death, although something tragic and painful to us mortals left behind, might be a joyous homecoming in the heavens.
I also believe it isn't wrong to be angry or fight with God when you feel angry and want to fight. This is healthy and all part of building that personal relationship with Him.
Also @ Omar. Why do you think that being granted a prayer, you are now more indebted to God? Like any good Father, I don't think God keeps a scoresheet every time he grants a wish from one his children.
Kind regards,
Eon
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Seko
Emperor 
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
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Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 15:19 |
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Looks like a good turnout for this discussion. I'll quote that rector of rock and roll, Mick Jagger: "You can't always get what you want. And if you try sometime you find, You get what you need".
In Islam there are contact prayers (Salat) that begin with the Fatiha-the key, an attestation of faith, and can be followed up by verses in the Quran. These are not personalized prayers in the western sense. There are those too, and they are called 'dua'. This can be any request to God. I mention this because most muslims do know the difference between personalized prayers and religiously dedicated supplications.
Various religious faithful like to have optimism alongside their desired wishes. Yet, supposedly all favors rest with their higher power. Hence, not under the person's control any longer. Is prayer a good investment? In investment terms, are good returns the ones which give an immediate gain upon withdrawl or are they the ones (prayer) that bear fruitful interest over the years?
It is bothersome to think that people are so fragile that after their desired wishes are prayed for and when most of them do not bring immediate results they are willing to pack up their bags and leave camp. Give up on their faith! Give up on their religion. That, to me, lacks broad perspective. As if the well wisher is a god themselves and that every good prayer must be answered. Wrong! People don't have that type of power. Being that their higher power may or may not have something to say is best left to father time. "God knows best' is an appropriate phrase in this matter.
Many on this thread have recalled the importance of appreciation. That's nice. Many have realzied that troubled times bring out the faithful in droves. Heck even disbeleivers are willling to try their luck in times of duress by offering prayers of any sort. Let's put this into another perspective. In medicine their is something called preventative healthcare and there is critical healthcare. In the preventaitve type, patients are given tools to maintain a good balanced lifestyle so that disease has little chance of occurance. In a critical condition treatments are immediate, often severe and the chance of success is limited due to the severity of chronic disease. In one there is the practice of 'healthy living' and the rational expectations about longevity and in the other lifestyle there is doubt, uncertainty and wreckless abandon where desperation is the game and blame is its name.
Religion is a similar paradigm when you take the practices of the 'believer' into this equation.
Edited by Seko - 01-Oct-2007 at 15:21 |
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Gharanai
Arch Duke
Afghan Empire Joined: 26-Jan-2006 Location: Afghanistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1515 |
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Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 16:19 |
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@ Northman
Dear Northman, I don't know about others belief but what I know about my own is that this world is a stage of test and examination for all the beings (that includes the animals and plants).
We face different phases in this examination, sometimes we are granted happiness and examined that what would be our reaction, and then vic versa we face sadness and then we are tested for our reaction.
So this world is just a examination room for the life after death (that's what I would belief), how would you and I know that if the death of Joyce was a exam point for their parents?
I personally have seen many people who have lost their loved ones and not a single tears has dropped from their eyes while saying that "He/She was created by Almighty and is taken back by him, he took back what belonged to him". I don't say that they don't love them, in fact those lost would be their nearest loved one but still their reaction would be of total satisfaction.
So you see they may gain more point than a person who cries for the death of their loved ones (I mean PLEASE tell me how many people have come back once death after crying for them) in this examination. As we are created by Almighty Lord and he only as the right to take us back from this world.
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Justinian
Chieftain
King of Númenor Joined: 11-Nov-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1399 |
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Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 04:51 |
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Wow; this ranks up there with questions like the meaning of life, but I'll give my two cents anyway. My view is god is omnipotent and therefore beyond human understanding same goes to his motives/actions/inactions etc. Therefore, I look at it as being the girls' time to leave this earth. A lame reason I suppose but one I believe. Things happen for a reason. With regards to praying; the reason I see things like this happen and I continue to believe in prayer is because god knows better than we do. Humans are inately (sp.?) selfish, and one could say they don't know what is in their best interest even in this case. That comedians' comments are rather useful in a perhaps vulgar sort of way. We don't know what the future holds for us, presumably god would and therefore we must trust in his decisions. I think that is where religion developed, explain things that don't make sense or are unexplainable, like the death of a child. This is also why I don't understand this huge argument between science and religion. They are not incompatable, only narrow short-sighted people would think so. Science we can understand, god we can't. There are plenty of things in this world we don't understand, like the case Northman has brought up, in this case the affairs of god. They both live in harmony in body and more importantly in mind. The lame excuse that science explains everything; how about explaining all of the inner workings of the human mind? Humans are an odd, irrational group indeed. Sorry to digress from the original topic there. Hope that throws some light on the issue. (perhaps over-estimating my own self-importance)
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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 09:52 |
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Asking for favor is indeed among one example of building relation, but asking for favor should not be primary reason for praying...
Santa is currently the only being who dared to enter my room without my permission. I will hunt him down with the AK-47 model I got for 50 bucks in US.
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