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The Culture of the Animals

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Poll Question: Wich is the cause of that behaviour
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Culture of the Animals
    Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 14:18
Hello fellows. I want to talk about one interesting point that intrigue me since i'm studiying Antropology wich is the presence or absence of Culture in animals. The first time that i thought about this was of course after seen some docus about primates (wich was opening a door), but, the debate about the capabilities of primates is always contaminated by the interference of humans, well i don't want to close the debate about the primates but to put an example more clear: the fear to reptils. There where the mammals live near reptils they have an special fear to these last (with some exceptions), for example i have seen lions runing away from a lizard
 
 
and many more behaviours in mammals like buffalos and other african hervivores drinking water but always keep watching the lake where live the crocks, and of course apes, monkeys etc crying when the snake approach and all the pack run to the trees. Well when i see this, the question that i make are the showed on the poll: had developed the mammals an instintive fear to reptils? That is, after live under the clutches of the dinnosaur, or better after millions of traumatic attacks it's possible that when we see bot scales on the ground automatically our response is fear... Or should we understand this problem as a cultural response? I understand Culture here as the knowledge of a comunity wich have been transmited, this knowledge pass from one individual to another and consequently from one generation to another, that explain why some mammals groups from apes to ungulates fear reptils, in fact in a docu that i saw about orphan orangutagangs a girl put a fake snake on the ground and when the apes approach (without fear) the girl began to cry because she said that this was necessary for their survival in the jungle at the moment that these "childrens" didn't learn from their mothers, this imply a system of culture.
 
But, this could be a missinterpretation of the situation. The snake was fake and possibilly the apes recognize it, and we should think about the possibility that not all the crazy apes that flee from the snakes know exactly what happen, is possibly that only one individual had develop this type of behaviour and in fact when he cry he do it according to a previous traumatic experience, that implicate that the animal had the capacity of develop independent conduct from the instinct but not the capacity of develop culture (wich is my third option), perfectly the attitude of his fellows can be based on the mimicry and not on the previous knowledge.
 
Or well, i'm in a mistake and the mammals don't fear the reptils so this is a waste of time LOL
 
 
OK that is the question guys, what do you think about this?


Edited by Ikki - 19-Sep-2007 at 18:06
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 18:57
You ask a difficult question there. Define culture? I would say different cultures develop naturally among the same groups of primates depending upon having a leader that impresses their dominance upon the group. We tend to to take the materialistic view of culture and measure it by our possessions rather than those we follow. Then again we are not always in the situation where we need to follow anyone for our survival. You could say human culture is twice removed from the natural reality.
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  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 05:37
Animals have culture, knowledge and souls. 
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 06:04
The development of culture is evident all throughout the animal kingdom, but most significantly in mammals; primates in particular. Mimicry plays a major part in the initial developments of a culture.
 
For example, I will use the case study of Macaque monkeys in Japan. One "tribe" of macaques inhabit the coast of Japan, fringing between the forest and the ocean. Regularly, tourist groups would come and throw chunks of sweet potato to the macaques. Of course, they would get sand on them.
One day however, whether the sweet potato fell into the shallows on the shore, or one bright spark gave it a try, a culture was created.
The macaque realised that the water would wash the sand off the sweet potato, making for a tastier and less crunchy, meal.
The behaviour caught on, and eventually was adopted by the whole macaque tribe, which systematically wash their meals in the ocean all the time now.

Another good case of this is seen in raccoons, who avidly wash their meals (mainly fruit) in streams before consuming.

However, in my opinion, one of the foremost instances of cultural development in the animal kingdom, is that undertaken by urban animals. The complete change of lifestyle as the first animals began to venture into urban areas, would have had to have called for certain individuals to try out new things, take leaps of faith.etc. It proved to be very advantageous, especially for omnivorous scavengers.
Consequently, many animals make their homes in urban areas, and are seen as even more successful than their "wild" relatives. Examples include raccoons, rats, possums and foxes.

As I alluded to earlier in the post, mimicry is a monumental catalyst in the development of animal cultures. By copying another individual who appears to be doing something advantageous, more and more individuals in a population 'catch on'. This is turn spreads, and in turn can become a culture.

The development of cultures, especially in mammals, is fascinating. On Attenborough's "Life of Mammals" he clearly illustrates this in episode 9 about primates. Unfortunately, I could not find a video anywhere on the internet - but I shall try and explain it as best as possible. Rather than a direct example of cultural intraspecific development, it involves the interaction of several species of mammals, in an effort to advantage each of them.
In order to refresh my memory, I will watch it again, and give an overview some time soon.
For now though, I'd love to continue discussing this topic!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 14:19
Animals don't have an articulated language. But that doesn't mean they don't have a culture. Theirs life pass in a world of symbolism and feelings. They don't have recorded language or arguments, but they dream, for instance. If they dream, they are able to follow stories and secuences of events, even though it is just imaginery, like seeing a movie without audio....
 
And culture they do have. When a wolf sing to the moon and every boddy in the forest (wolf I mean) adds up to the song, that's culture to me. Kids are tought to hunt, for instance.... if there is no culture then it doesn't make sense to teach anything...
 
I agree, animals have certain forms of culture we are not well aware of. It is just necesary to get rid of the dogma that tell us "words is concience". It is easy to see that's false. And in doing so we will understand what we have in common with our cousins, the animals.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 14:24
Originally posted by elenos

You ask a difficult question there. Define culture?
 
Easy. Culture is information transmmited by teaching generation after generation, in opossition to instinct that is transmitted by genetics.
 
Originally posted by elenos

I would say different cultures develop naturally among the same groups of primates depending upon having a leader that impresses their dominance upon the group. We tend to to take the materialistic view of culture and measure it by our possessions rather than those we follow. Then again we are not always in the situation where we need to follow anyone for our survival. You could say human culture is twice removed from the natural reality.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 20:28

An excellent defination of culture, pinquin. I was thinking out loud about the cultural differences between humans and animals. You could have just used one word, civilization. But what is civilization? As you say the teachings of generation after generation imparts layers of meaning that separate us from following the natural standards this world imposes. Try as we may we can never be greater than what makes existence possible. I realize saying that can get me into trouble. Such a statement cuts across imposed beliefs that more or less teach us we are apart from the world.

We have our brain as the software to develop ourselves and our surroundings to an extreme, but the trouble is we keep dumping the hardware we develop to make the trappings of civilization all over the place. For a wild animal there can be nothing wrong with being part of the natural surroundings. Wilderness is the essential part of the way they live. We expect them to live that way until they are in our way. For us to live in the same manner would be to "go feral" or "return to the jungle".

I suppose Im partly asking myself what purpose is served by calling those people with natural ideas as uncivilized. For instance, a barbarian was not a civilized being and therefore the adjective, barbarian refers to a stage in human "progress" between the civilized and the uncivilized. Barbaric is the term used for certain qualities of barbarians, especially their crudeness or wildness. Barbarous may be used in the sense of implying a lack of civilization. It usually denotes what the more civilized call the cruelty that the less civilized are thought most likely to display.

 To which race of people does this term apply now? We no longer apply this term to indigenous peoples of the world for our understanding of culture has increased that much more. The more we find out the less savage their traditional ways become. Those called civilized are the ignorant in some cases. The term of barbaric has now become virtually obsolete in describing the customs of   less advanced people.

We could say those who live naturally are closer to the animals, but should not be used to say they are animals (in the barbaric sense), but still, where is the place of the educated animal lover in this scheme of things? There is a great confusion of terms here where the animals get to wear the mistakes we have made over the ages.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 21:49
Originally posted by elenos

An excellent defination of culture, pinquin. I was thinking out loud about the cultural differences between humans and animals. You could have just used one word, civilization. But what is civilization? As you say the teachings of generation after generation imparts layers of meaning that separate us from following the natural standards this world imposes. Try as we may we can never be greater than what makes existence possible. I realize saying that can get me into trouble. Such a statement cuts across imposed beliefs that more or less teach us we are apart from the world.
 
As far as I see it, civilization is only a particular form of human culture: a culture developed in cities. For most of the time human beings have lived in the planet, sedentarism was the norm. Those ancestors of all weren't "civilized" just because they didn't live in or around cities.
 
Originally posted by elenos

We have our brain as the software to develop ourselves and our surroundings to an extreme, but the trouble is we keep dumping the hardware we develop to make the trappings of civilization all over the place. For a wild animal there can be nothing wrong with being part of the natural surroundings. Wilderness is the essential part of the way they live. We expect them to live that way until they are in our way. For us to live in the same manner would be to "go feral" or "return to the jungle".
 
Human beings have never being "part of the jungle", actually. No matter how basic theirs livestyle could be. In fact, large and massive extinctions happened in the Americas when Man entered the Hemisphere comming from Eurasia. The same happened in almost every island of the Pacific colonized by the Polynesians.
 
Originally posted by elenos

I suppose Im partly asking myself what purpose is served by calling those people with natural ideas as uncivilized. For instance, a barbarian was not a civilized being and therefore the adjective, barbarian refers to a stage in human "progress" between the civilized and the uncivilized. Barbaric is the term used for certain qualities of barbarians, especially their crudeness or wildness. Barbarous may be used in the sense of implying a lack of civilization. It usually denotes what the more civilized call the cruelty that the less civilized are thought most likely to display.
 
The term Barbarian and Civilized are relative terms. It is known the nomadic people have less complex lifestyles, but that doesn't mean they lacked imagination or though less. Just a study in theirs cosmology is enough to convince the skeptics they really have complex and worthly cultures.
 
Even more, the term Civilized doesn't mean good people in the same way Barbarian doesn't mean evil people. You find both kinds in both cathegories. You can claim the Egyptians or Athenians were very civilized and refined, and perhaps you are right. However, there were others like the Romans, that enjoyed killing people in mass in theirs circus, laughing and getting excited when people lost theirs limbs and agonized in the arena. Where Roman really "civilized" I wonder?
The Spartans also were quite cruel, and Chartagians among others practised human sacrifices. On the other hand, nomadic people like the Mongols of the Middle Age, where among the most evil people ever. In comparison Vikings looked like good fellow. And where Hitler's SS civilized people? Of course they were, no matter how evil they were.
 
On the other hand, some tribal people were brutal, indeed. No excuses on people like the ancient Jibaroes, for example (although today are quite different, indeed). However, NOT ALL the tribal people have that way of act at all. Most were just common fellows bussy in surviving.
 
In short, the label "civilization" doesn't mean moral superiority at all.
 
Originally posted by elenos

 To which race of people does this term apply now? We no longer apply this term to indigenous peoples of the world for our understanding of culture has increased that much more. The more we find out the less savage their traditional ways become. Those called civilized are the ignorant in some cases. The term of barbaric has now become virtually obsolete in describing the customs of   less advanced people.
 
I believe after WW II people undestood that some of the most Barbaric and Savage people ever were civilized people. For instance, what else but civilized was evil doctor Mengele?
 
Originally posted by elenos

We could say those who live naturally are closer to the animals, but should not be used to say they are animals (in the barbaric sense), but still, where is the place of the educated animal lover in this scheme of things? There is a great confusion of terms here where the animals get to wear the mistakes we have made over the ages.
 
We can't apply morals to animals. They just don't know anything about it.
However, some of the cruelests acts have been done by human beings rather than by animals. That's a fact.
 
Finally, the only difference that I see between the "thinking" of animals and ourselves is that they lack articulated language. Can a being think without language? Of course it can. If you ever tried to "read" dreams, you'll understand that the language of the symbols (or image) is powerful enough to convey stories, situations and analogic reasoning.
 
We should try to destroy the myth that say the verb is what matters for thinking. The verb is just a particular mechanism of our species. It is the symbol (images) what we have in common with animals. That's why they and us can enjoy a good dream. Never saw a dog complaning or getting furious while dreamming? Well, he was recalling what he though the day before... sort of speak.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 02:11

We look to wilderness places where the fundamentals of life still apply and know how much we still love the natural schemes. They are part of us that speak to us in non-verbal ways. For all we can do or say this natural world, working by laws we didnt make, continues to happen as our most basic reality. To know something about this world that made our being possible is better than knowing nothing. Despite our living in city or suburb, we can respect natural happenings in ways that dignify the ultimate process. To accept the world as it is, no matter what our circumstances may be is the beginning of wisdom. 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 09:52

Yes elenos, that's a very romantic way of seeing things... And urgent, indeed. I agree that we must break our human-centrism and start to respect at last the existency of other beings that, although not human, they also deserve to live and that share with us most of our origins and genetics.

I am afraid with the population explosion that's suffering Asia and Africa, all the rest of nature that remain in the world will dissapear pretty soon. Perhaps we could save same. Otherwise, let's not forget that our domestic dog and cat is also a being that deserve to be understood besides those archetypes created by walt disney and hanna barbera cartoons.
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 18:39
A romantic way of seeing things? What is happening is not romantic at all, we have the words but not the will to cut back on progress. Have you ever been to Asia? I have and what is really happening right at this moment defies description. People are living in abject poverty while space consuming high rises tear away from the places they used to live. Even if they tried to sleep in the doorways they would be beaten or shot, none of this namby-pamby human rights stuff for them.

Not so long ago people used to live in harmony with their surroundings in places that are now being needlessly developed by a handful of mega-rich bastards while the rest are poor. I have heard of jungles being torn down overnight. Have you ever heard of a needless city being torn down to grow more food? The mathmatics of it all are just not right
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 18:58
I agree. The world is a mess.
 
In my little paradyse close of the Antartida I still have space to live. However even in here it is hard to stand the rush hour of my six million city.. And yes, we have some neighbourhoods were you can only enter with a militirized police....
 
Yes, I have seen the natural decline in my own country, which is by all terms, quite sparsely populated, and still quite green. I can only imagine how things could go today in places like Asia, Africa, Middle East and even Europe, with people after people all piled up together, without space to rest at all. It must be like living in hell, I bet.
 
But not all the fault is from rich people. Poors in the old world keep reproducing in a rate that menace the survival of mankind. Someone has to tell them that the biblical phrase "fill the earth" doesn't apply anymore. The earth if full already.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 21-Sep-2007 at 18:59
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 21:53

What Im saying is we need tough new approaches to old problems. I suppose it is easy to say this from an Australian pointy of view where we still have room, some wildlife and no need for people to live in compounds where they have security guards. You can go anywhere in a city. The same cannot be said for America, and yet they have the highest living standards in the world and consume half the worlds resources.

There is a case of the many being tricked by the few into thinking they are better off by having everything they want around them, yet all wealth comes at a cost.  Bet you would like to get your green card! Wouldnt we all, but only because of being better off in living standards with more opportunities. They should have the card as a different color for it certainly is doesnt mean the place is staying green.  

I love going to Asia, but have seen parts go down the sink almost overnight. For all their population only a small part of the building boom goes towards housing or feeding people. Many religions of today beg for funds to keep people in the destitute areas alive. A whole raft of charity stories hinge on telling about human suffering and how noble to do something for them. These stories are propped up despite those areas remaining destitute. Perhaps they live in a land and climate where they are adapted to die young in relation to others of the world. So let us stop the misery these people have suffered since time began?

Many in third world countries suffer because they are overpopulated. How dreadful to say let forces of nature do their work and reduce their numbers. Let them live longer and overcome the dreadful work of nature over millions of years and get them to work factories to produce our sprays and plastics. What is called civilization worships something above this world without care for the health of the planet.

Where does it stop when false values are imposed? Natural senses become dulled by environmental destruction.  How can we understand those who live according to their environment, even if for a shorter term of life? Attempts at global cleanup have been no more than cosmetic yet the future of humanity as a whole depends more links with the environment. Lands are fast becoming housing estates and office blocks, yet much of the land taken by cities could grow more and better food.

Environmental destruction comes as an unchained monster that runs amok without check, and where ways of desolation are give free rein. We need seek more preservation of the natural and more harmonious ways of progress. We need the expansion of commerce as the source of public wealth, not enormous buildings for a few dominant companies that only end up restricting individual freedom.

If progress means artificial pity or profit then telling the truth always becomes victim. Dictatorship of thought arises. Truth can best be told in the light of natural means and not given to us by those who peddle artificial standards. Those who follow natural ways want the good things in life, but not that which is built on exploitation.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 23:23
Elenos:
 
I don't believe is a matter of values or choices. Do you remember the movie "The gods must be crazy"... If not, it was about a tribe of Khoisans totally isolated of "civilization" that while hunting find a coke bottle. That bottle converts in a symbol of status and totally altered the tribal society.
It must sound funny but the same experience had a German friend of mine that enjoyed exploring the Amazon jungle. He told me once he were a coke t-shirt while arriving to a friendly tribe, and the chief say him he like it so this fellow gave the shirt. All the tribe become mad with the t-shirt (something like a sports cars for a kid of a guetto).
 
It is also truth that the last natives of the jungle that remain, jump into the civilized world as soon as they have the oportunity. They preffer to wear the uniform of the soccer team of Brazil instead of theirs tribal clothes!
 
Today, without civilization we couldn't survive. There is just not enough land to feed all people that crowds the surface of Earth. If civilization stop, population would get down to perhaps a hundred million.... where do we left the other 6.500 millions?
 
 The emptiness of Australia (of Southern Chile) is just and illusion. Most of Earth is overcrowded already and will get worst. Masses of people in Asia and Africa will destroy theirs sources of food quite soon. They will try to escape and will invade our countries, and nothing will stop until a major crisis happened. The waves will be of hundred of millions people and will make our present immigration problems look like trivial.
 
Worst disasters are foreseen:
 
And the worst is that they are already happening! Global warming is melting the ices around the world. We have a hole in the ozone layer. Contamination continues. People is dying of hunger in Africa already but the number of people keeps growing.
 
I really wonder if we are really going to survive to it. At least there is a global coup, I don't see how this mess could be solved in a human way.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 02:15
The gods must be crazy was a great movie. It helped us to see society from another point of view. But we only have one world and leaving things alone, letting them be, is too much for some to handle.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 10:10
Well, the point is simple. Modern civilization is corrosive for any "primitive" or simpler lifestyle.
 
All people want to have a nice car, a big house, dress well and tourist the world.... However, if 6.500 million people do that the ecological impact will be too much.
 
The world of the future will be pretty much like an oversized Hong Kong. People, after people after people, and perhaps just one or two small parks to rest once in a year....
 
How to change it? Diminish population growth in SS Africa and the Southern Asia. That's the most urgent task of all.
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 17:58
They say that humans are part of the animal kingdom after all. Then we are the pampered pooches who love to spoil ourselves just because we can. I agree birth control in third world countries is the most important issue.
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