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Mameluk technology in 1500s
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andrew View Drop Down
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mameluk technology in 1500s
    Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 18:28
I know the Ottomans counquered Egypt in the 1500s but I would like to know a bit of the Mameluk technology at the time. I know for a fact that the Mameluks did use canons, they weren't cavemen, but it makes no such mention of muskets. Their canons were entrenched and couldn't be used, if fact they used them to defend cities, but it would definitely hit with a more devistating effect if it hit the Ottoman army.
 
Now I know they believed that using any firearm was 'cowardly' but they definitely had the technology available to them. The Sufavids did aslo but absolutely refused to use ANY type of firearms. Now I don't think the fact the Mameluks had canon and Ridnayah can be argued, but did they have guns? Why did the Ottomans win? Obvioulsy if it came to hand to hand combat the Mameluks would win but if they did indeed have guns then could it be that the Ottomans used them better?
 
Love to hear your thoughs.Smile
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Reginmund View Drop Down
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 09:11
I fear your powers of sourceless conjecture and assumption, I really do.
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 13:50
IIRC mameluks did bought some weapons from the venetians to fight the Ottomans. This did happen when they got a reply of Selim the grim "fight your enemy with wat he's fighting you", but they couldnt use the weapons they bought because Selim crossed over a dessert which they didnt expected and attacked them from the back.

correct me if im wrong.
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 13:12
Andrew,
 
Were you able to find the books by David Ayalon and Gabor Agoston that I suggested in the Ottoman technology thread?  They are a necessity to have when studying this topic.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 02-Sep-2007 at 18:28
Late Byzantine Military
Ottoman perceptions of the Americas
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andrew View Drop Down
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 17:56
I'm trying to buy them. I'm currently searching in the used books section of Amazon. Can I get this in a public library?
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 18:22
Originally posted by andrew

I'm trying to buy them. I'm currently searching in the used books section of Amazon. Can I get this in a public library?
 
Some public libraries have a sharing or interlibrary loan service.  You might check and see if yours does - ask about it.  Or, you can ask the librarian if they offer a service comparable to it.  I think any person can go look at a university library.  You just can't check anything out without a student ID.
 
The Murphey Ottoman warfare book should be available on Amazon.  I got my copy from there.  The Ayalon one on Mamelukes and firearms will be hard to find to purchase.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 02-Sep-2007 at 18:27
Late Byzantine Military
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Kapikulu View Drop Down
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 20:08
They did have firearms. Apart then the cannons, also muskets and arquebuses.
 
I think the matter is rather tactical in Ridanieh.Mameluke Sultan Tomanbai surely learned from the heavy defeat in Mercidabık(in Syria) against Ottomans in 1516, which resulted in Sultan Kansu Gavri's death; and then increased the number of cannons and firearms. But Ottoman army coming over the Sinai desert caught them in a real surprise, and disabled any cannon usage.
 
Selim I was a skilled commander and his corps, elite corps like Janissaries and better trained cavalry overpowered their Mameluke counterparts
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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andrew View Drop Down
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 20:53
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

The Ayalon one on Mamelukes and firearms will be hard to find to purchase.
 
That's the one I'm trying to find at the moment. I did get a couple of books on the Ottomans but it centers more around the European powers rather then the Ottomans themselves. Next year I will be taking a very advanced course on European history and plan on getting information on it from my professor who is very knowledgable about this subject.
 
 
Originally posted by kapikulu

They did have firearms. Apart then the cannons, also muskets and arquebuses.
 
I think the matter is rather tactical in Ridanieh.Mameluke Sultan Tomanbai surely learned from the heavy defeat in Mercidabık(in Syria) against Ottomans in 1516, which resulted in Sultan Kansu Gavri's death; and then increased the number of cannons and firearms. But Ottoman army coming over the Sinai desert caught them in a real surprise, and disabled any cannon usage.
 
Selim I was a skilled commander and his corps, elite corps like Janissaries and better trained cavalry overpowered their Mameluke counterparts
 
So you would say the loss of the Mamelukes was a tactical one instead of a technological one? I know the Sufavids absolutely refused to use firearms. Interesting is the fact that the Mamelukes used these advanced fireams very well before a lot of European nations did yet didn't learn a single thing judging from the Battle of the Pyramids.
 
Also the Ottomans usually outnumbered their counterparts in battle correct?


Edited by andrew - 02-Sep-2007 at 20:55
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 21:16
Originally posted by andrew

That's the one I'm trying to find at the moment. I did get a couple of books on the Ottomans but it centers more around the European powers rather then the Ottomans themselves. Next year I will be taking a very advanced course on European history and plan on getting information on it from my professor who is very knowledgable about this subject.
 
Do you have access to a university library and interlibrary loan?  I can't remember but I thought I had asked you this before.  See if you can get it that way for now.  The only outlet for purchasing it might be online through rare book dealers.  I'd be pleasantly surprised if you were able to find it to buy, though.  Here is the reference again:
 
David Ayalon, Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to a Mediaeval Society (Totawa, NJ: Frank Cass, 1978).
 
Also look for it under this publishing information if you cannot find the above one:
 
David Ayalon, Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to a Mediaeval Society (London: Vallentine Mitchell, 1956).
 
There might be some helpful chapters in this books as well:
 
David Ayalon, Islam and the Abode of War: Military Slaves and Islamic Adversaries (Aldershot: Variorum, 1994).
     * Contains a chapter entitled, "The end of the Mamluk sultanate: why did the Ottomans spare the Mamluks of Egypt and wipe out the Mamluks of Syria?"
     * "Mamluk military aristocracy during the first years of the Ottoman occupation of Egypt"
 
Andrew, can you read Arabic?


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 02-Sep-2007 at 21:17
Late Byzantine Military
Ottoman perceptions of the Americas
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andrew View Drop Down
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2007 at 09:35
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Do you have access to a university library and interlibrary loan?  I can't remember but I thought I had asked you this before.  See if you can get it that way for now.  The only outlet for purchasing it might be online through rare book dealers.  I'd be pleasantly surprised if you were able to find it to buy, though.  Here is the reference again:
 
David Ayalon, Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to a Mediaeval Society (Totawa, NJ: Frank Cass, 1978).
 
Also look for it under this publishing information if you cannot find the above one:
 
David Ayalon, Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to a Mediaeval Society (London: Vallentine Mitchell, 1956).
 
There might be some helpful chapters in this books as well:
 
David Ayalon, Islam and the Abode of War: Military Slaves and Islamic Adversaries (Aldershot: Variorum, 1994).
     * Contains a chapter entitled, "The end of the Mamluk sultanate: why did the Ottomans spare the Mamluks of Egypt and wipe out the Mamluks of Syria?"
     * "Mamluk military aristocracy during the first years of the Ottoman occupation of Egypt"
 
Andrew, can you read Arabic?
 
I'm writing this down. Right now I attend the University of Pittsburgh and study medicine. I'll check at my library and then I'll try Chapters if I can't find it there but I am on a tight budget.
 
Yes, I can read Arabic if you need any help with it.
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