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The best medieval unit

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Poll Question: The Best unit
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
39 [34.21%]
6 [5.26%]
20 [17.54%]
14 [12.28%]
0 [0.00%]
8 [7.02%]
4 [3.51%]
2 [1.75%]
0 [0.00%]
21 [18.42%]
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The best medieval unit
    Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 08:05
they were more middle-new age ones
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 12:45

Originally posted by warhead

I would like to correct the myth of the mongol supierority in army, no record whatsoever mentioned that their archery, organization,, discipline or armament than any other previous nomads that dominated mongolia, there is no reason just because they were more successful to suppose that their army is of supieror quality than others, there are many occasion when mongol armies were beaten by inferior odds too and vise versa, it all depend on the commander and thats one of the rason the mongol army was successful. 

 

so? Theres no other steppe option on the poll

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  Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 14:37
Well, the Mongol horse archers were so dominant in their time, that I have to vote for them, followed by Longbowmen and Roman Cataphracts.  Most others on their had a mixed records.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 15:51
I would say the Keshik/Heshigten.
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  Quote Keltoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 18:22
Can anyone enlighten me on the keshiks? I looked them up on google and couldn't really find anything.
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 21:07

"so? Theres no other steppe option on the poll"

 

there is an "other"

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 09:32
and persians live in half-steppes
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 17:50
Mongols! I can't decide  between Mongol Archers and Keshiks..
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 04:15
put those who have more votes..,.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 14:16

Originally posted by Keltoi

Can anyone enlighten me on the keshiks? I looked them up on google and couldn't really find anything.

They were the Mongol guards formed by Chinggis Kha'an. Different versions of their names are Keshik and Kheshigten/Heshigten.

These are the Keshiks.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 16:42
Originally posted by fastspawn

SInce Mongols thrased every army they met during this time period, and since the Keshiks are the imperial guard. I cast my vote.
this is not true
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 17:43
Originally posted by ihsan

Originally posted by Keltoi

Can anyone enlighten me on the keshiks? I looked them up on google and couldn't really find anything.

They were the Mongol guards formed by Chinggis Kha'an. Different versions of their names are Keshik and Kheshigten/Heshigten.

These are the Keshiks.

 

looks familiar, hee heh

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 18:18
Originally posted by Tobodai

Originally posted by ihsan

Originally posted by Keltoi

Can anyone enlighten me on the keshiks? I looked them up on google and couldn't really find anything.

They were the Mongol guards formed by Chinggis Kha'an. Different versions of their names are Keshik and Kheshigten/Heshigten.

These are the Keshiks.

 

looks familiar, hee heh

the europeans were better

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  Quote Abyssmal Fiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 15:28

Hmm...

I would say Teutonic Knights, mainly due to the sheer amount of devotion, and that natural German-Pride that most Germans have, but the Teutonic Archers weren't very brilliant... Definetly over shadowed by Roman Cavalry, Mongolian Horse Archers, and British Longbowmen.

However, since I can't find a compromise (Spelling..? ), I'll say Others...

Cavalry: I really liked the French Paladins, but they didn't have as good of a record as the Roman Cavalry, so I'm going with the Cataphracts.

Archers: Hands down, English Longbowmen. I don't think the Mongolians would have won at Crecy, Agincourt, or any other major battlefield. Much less siege Paris.

Foot Soldiers: Here I'm kinda at a loss. I like the Spartans for their fearlessness (Or so it's said), the Macedonians for their Sarissa long pikes, and Roman Infantry. I'm going with the Immortals of the Persian army, though.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 20:10

Golden Mamelukes !!!

 

They defeated Mongols.

I love gold.

They are nobles.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 20:28
Originally posted by SovietJesus

.

Archers: Hands down, English Longbowmen. I don't think the Mongolians would have won at Crecy, Agincourt, or any other major battlefield. Much less siege Paris.

.

This is exactly right. The english longbow is the most useful archery weapon in history and not like the fancy asian bows that costs hell of a lot to make.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 20:35
Do you think you could make your points and express your opinions with out trolling?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 20:40

Originally posted by Cywr

Do you think you could make your points and express your opinions with out trolling?

this is not trolling. I think that the longbows are better. What's wrong with that?

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  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2004 at 10:22

Heavy Cavalry: Song heavy cavalry with fire lances!

Archers: One of those Medieval Chinese armies where every man carried a crossbow. Or the Mongol horse archers, yeah, them. With bows that could out range, out penetrate, even from horseback, any other non-modern bow in history. They're the perfect example of speed, power, and finesse in battle.

Footsoldiers: the Spartans were very famous footsoldiers, possibly the most famous in western history. The Landershnecks (wow, I just butchered that name) were just a cool idea, fancy fancy dressed hard-fightin' mercenaries with greatswords! There's also the various elite regiments formed throughout the long history of China. This one's too hard to decide. !

There's the Ming style formation of footmen... where it's like... a square is formed (with an empty center) of gunmen, fire lance users may be right behind them, then the center consists of halbrediers, greatswordsmen, and sword-and-shield men. Used to beat back the nomad archers. This tactic also required Chariots with gunners though. But basically, the chariots are mobile just enough to fire at the horse archers, the chariots then retreat towards the square when the nomads get too close, the square's projectile soldiers open fire, rockets are fired if the nomads attempt to charge (which is usually enough to drive them off) but if they still remain intent on charging, the shieldmen step up to block them while the halberdiers strike. shieldmen with their swords also dispatch de-horsed nomads.

 

So really, there can't be one 'best' trooper, as a good army consists of many elements to form a strong fighting force.



Edited by TMPikachu
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 12:08

I won't vote, since the choices are somewhat limited, but I'll make a list:

Medieval

The Army of William the Conqueror  Normans, Bretons, & French, in a balanced force of heavy cavarly, infantry spearmen, and archers.

The Crusader Army of Richard the Lion-Heart  A formidable amalgamation of both secular knights and fighting monks (Templars & Hospitallers), as well as German and North Italian crossbowmen, protected by infantry spearmen with large shields (pavesari).  They certainly gave Saladin a bloody nose at Arsuf.

The Mongols  The record of the Mongols speaks for itself.  For all intents and purposes, they were unbeatable in the field.  They also excelled at sieges, with the help of Chinese and Persian engineers, as well as the efforts of Georgian and Armenian auxilliaries, etc.  Aside from the successful defense of the Hungarian town of Szkesfehrvr (aka Stuhlweissenburg) by a band of Italian mercenaries, the Mongols defeated virtually every European force they encountered.  They likewise had tremendous success in the East.  Their only real failures were against the Mamluks at Ayn Jalut, and against the Vietnamese.  I don't count the two invasions of Japan because the "Mongol" forces involved in both campaigns were made up mainly of Chinese and Korean auxilliaries, and it was in any event the weather which ultimately did the fleets in.

The Mamluks  They beat the Mongols--'nuff said.

English yeomen (longbowmen and billmen)  The English yeoman was a formidable fighting man.  Known mainly for his use of the dreaded longbow, he also gained notoriety with the fearsome bill, a polearm with agricultural origins (used for pruning trees) that developed into military forms.  Aside from archery, traditional English martial arts included fencing with sword-and-buckler (common sidearms for longbowmen and billmen alike), and the use of traditional polearms like the "short staff" (aka quarterstaff) and bill variants ("black bill", "brown bill", and "forest bill"/"Welsh hook").  The English gained most of their notoriety by repeatedly trouncing the French, but they also served as mercenaries throughout Europe--in Italy, Spain, etc.

North Italian & German crossbowmen  see entry on Richard the Lion-Heart above.

***

Medieval/Renaissance

Swiss Reislaufer  The Swiss really helped to put footsoldiers back on the map, with their use of traditional weapons like the halberd (helleparten and pike (SpieB.  The smashed the Burgundians, Austrians, and others, before turning towards mercenary employment.  They were considered the very best infantry in Europe in the late 15th century, and they were so good that they prompted the Germans to simply copy them, when the first band of landsknechte was founded in the late 1400s.  Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

German Landsknechte  The landsknechts ("servants of the land") were established in imitation of the Swiss, and it took them a while to get as good as the freedom-loving mountaineers.  The Germans placed a greater emphasis on the use of firearms, which were used by some of their elite doppelsoldner (other doppelsoldner fought as close combat troops, with halberds and zweihanders--huge two-handed swords).  Whenever the Swiss and Germans clashed, no quarter was given--this was considered "Bad War".  Eventually, however, the landsknechts surpassed the Swiss--the Battle of La Bicocca in 1522 is usually considered the turning point.  This was the first time the landsknechts soundly defeated the Swiss.  The great German commander, Georg von Frundsberg (aka the "Father of the Landsknechts") even met the Swiss Captain of Unterwalden, Arnold Winkelried, and slew him with his pike.

The landsknechts continued to be a formidable force at least through the mid-16th century, but after that, the role of Top Dog went to the Spanish.

 

The Spanish Army of Italy, under Gonzalo de Cordoba  The "Great Captain" was certainly an awesome commander, and he laid the foundation for the later successes of the Spanish Army.  The original Spanish Army that invaded Italy in 1495 to counter the French was made up mostly of light cavalry (jinetes), as well as infantry sword-and-target men (referred to most commonly as rodeleros--"shield bearers"--but sometimes simply called espadachins--"swordsmen").  This force proved incapable of dealing with heavy French gendarmes and Swiss pikemen, and Cordoba suffered his only defeat that same year, at Seminara.  Cordoba then fought a guerrilla campaign, until he could reorganize his forces.  He introduced the arquebus on a wide scale, and 2,000 landsknechts leant to him by Maximillian added a much-needed pike element to his force (and eventually, the Spanish learned the Swiss-German pike drill themselves).  The rodeleros were retained, but in smaller numbers.  With this new infantry organization, Cordoba was never defeated again.  Supported by friendly pikemen, the rodeleros were able to execute great carnage with their swords against the Swiss.  He beat the French and Swiss time and again--at Barletta, Cerignola, and the Garigliano River.  His reforms led to the establishment of the colunela in 1505. 

The Spanish Army of Flanders, late 16th century  With the ever-increasing use of firearms, the Spanish revamped their organization yet again, with the tercio in 1534.  This was predominantly a pike-and-shot unit, though rodeleros were still occasionally used for specialist roles.  With the tercio, the Spanish gained the most fearsome reputation in Western Europe, and the Spanish Army of Flanders was probably one of the two very best armies in the world at that time (the other one was the samurai army that Hideyoshi sent to Korea in 1592).

 

The Samurai Army of Hideyoshi, late 16th century  In the 1540s, the Japanese were first exposed to the matchlock arquebus by the Portuguese, and the were understandably impressed.  They built copies of this weapon in droves, until they supposedly ended up with more firearms than existed in Europe!  Like other warrior cultures with a strong archery tradition (the English, the Venetians, and the Ottoman Turks), the Japanese integrated the use of guns and bows nicely--archers were used to provide covering fire for the gunners while the latter reloaded.  Although they failed to hold onto Korea (let alone conquer Ming China, as per Hideyoshi's plan), the Japanese in the 1590s nevertheless demonstrated their power over those six horrible years of the so-called Imjin War.

 

Peace,

David Black Mastro



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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