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What do you thinkabout the Islamic Revolution
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ill_teknique View Drop Down
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What do you thinkabout the Islamic Revolution
    Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 17:03
Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by ill_teknique

Zargos the ummah is democratic in nature and majority decision is favoured not a monarchical type of government and the head of state i.e. Khalifah is only the secular executive not a religious one because Islam does not have a central executive source in faith based matters the connection between god and man is simple and direct not hierarchical.

So if one government likes to claim that they are an "Islamic state" that does not make them necesarily so.  Saddam held elections did that make Irak a democratic state?

oh come on, Umma is seeing by clerics as sheep, which always need a sheeper(Caliph) to led them. Do you really think the Caliph would allow their "sheep" to have brains and act as they want?



you obvously dont understand islam so either be quiet or hone your knowledge of it.  beside that the caliph does not necesaritly need to be a monarch he needs to be elected and can serve terms - so the caliph can be a president
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 16:03

come on friend don't attack! we are trying to discuse without getting personal. I know about islam more than you think, but i will discuse this theme when you are getting calm.

 
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Posts: 197 		  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 19:31
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by azimuth

the first caliph was elected.

 

By whom?

 

By the people.
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 21:17
Originally posted by Fizzil

Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by azimuth

the first caliph was elected.

 

By whom?

 

By the people.

by which people?
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Posts: 197 		  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 21:41

Originally posted by Maziar

by which people?

The Aquilonians, their leader Conan, approved that the first Caliph was to be Abu Bakr, a mighty Zuagir warrior who aided Conan against the evil Shemites and their evil master Toth-Amon.

The Aquilonians on that day gathered and proclaimed Abu Bakr as Caliph of the Zuagir, and left to their capital of Tarantia.

The democratic elections ended when Antar bin Shadad established the Antarid Caliphate after he was elected, where it was made hereditary.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 19:30
The original purpose of setting up such a government as is now shown in the IRI was, as religion was, created for the benefit of the people by helping them rid themselves of commercial and unnatural things not given originally, and then to create a peaceful settlement in which the writings of the Quran and teachings of mohammed may be taught freely, but mans greed over powers all.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 04:47

you obvously dont understand islam so either be quiet or hone your knowledge of it.  beside that the caliph does not necesaritly need to be a monarch he needs to be elected and can serve terms - so the caliph can be a president

Infact caliph cannot become a monarch. For this  reason,  most people  in Turkey believe, only first four caliph is real caliph. It is not a kingdom.

You cannot take caliphate by force.

 
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 06:18
Originally posted by Fizzil

Originally posted by Maziar

by which people?

The Aquilonians, their leader Conan, approved that the first Caliph was to be Abu Bakr, a mighty Zuagir warrior who aided Conan against the evil Shemites and their evil master Toth-Amon.

The Aquilonians on that day gathered and proclaimed Abu Bakr as Caliph of the Zuagir, and left to their capital of Tarantia.

The democratic elections ended when Antar bin Shadad established the Antarid Caliphate after he was elected, where it was made hereditary.

 Fizzil

Maziar the first Caliph was elected by majority of Muslims,

note that muslims at that time were mostly Arabs and Arab Groups at that time were represented by Trib leaders who elected The First Caliph Abu Baker as the successor of the Prophet.
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Posts: 1155 		  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 16:46
Originally posted by Fizzil

Originally posted by Maziar

by which people?

The Aquilonians, their leader Conan, approved that the first Caliph was to be Abu Bakr, a mighty Zuagir warrior who aided Conan against the evil Shemites and their evil master Toth-Amon.

The Aquilonians on that day gathered and proclaimed Abu Bakr as Caliph of the Zuagir, and left to their capital of Tarantia.

The democratic elections ended when Antar bin Shadad established the Antarid Caliphate after he was elected, where it was made hereditary.

Very funny!!

So this your way of discusion? I am sooo impressed. Could you tell me why the muslim people get always nervous, if another people talk about islam? So is this also Islam's way for democracy?

 
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Posts: 197 		  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 18:15
Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Fizzil

Originally posted by Maziar

by which people?

The Aquilonians, their leader Conan, approved that the first Caliph was to be Abu Bakr, a mighty Zuagir warrior who aided Conan against the evil Shemites and their evil master Toth-Amon.

The Aquilonians on that day gathered and proclaimed Abu Bakr as Caliph of the Zuagir, and left to their capital of Tarantia.

The democratic elections ended when Antar bin Shadad established the Antarid Caliphate after he was elected, where it was made hereditary.

Very funny!!

So this your way of discusion? I am sooo impressed. Could you tell me why the muslim people get always nervous, if another people talk about islam? So is this also Islam's way for democracy?

 

whoa, hold on to your horses there buddy. Have some coffee, and get a sarcasm detector next time, you'll need it!

The question you asked didn't require knowledge in rocket science to figure out.
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 00:04
I would like to address this thread.
 
1. In my humble opinion, Khomeini did what Ataturk had done.
Ataturk had gathered all the Islamists around him and proclaimed a Jihad against the Greeks. When the Turks won, he destroyed all the Islamists and established a secular nation.
 
Khomeini, like you guys have mentioned, called for a secular government to rally support for his cause, but instead established a religious one: a new Fatimid Empire of modern day.
 
2. As for Secular will make things better mantra everyone loves to sing, but no one does any thinking behind: Secularism doesnt mean Absolute Power.
 
I dont know how many times people will have to be told, just because you have a Secular Government or a Islamist Government or any other government, it doesnt automatically mean you will be on top.
 
In my opinion, the best government is the most efficient government, and the most JUSTICE-filled government. You can have a Caliph who embraces Islam and spreads it while making sure he is not overtaxing and doing the very best for his nation. Or you can have a Secular President doing the same, the concept is the JUSTICE that is practiced.
 
If you want to see power, realize the era of 650-1000. Ummayad/Abbasid Khilafat where politics were heavily incorporated with Religion.
 
Realize that during this time Byzantine Empire was like modern day France, a clown country that only makes noise but doesnt have anything to back it up.
The Islamic Empire was the worlds superpower, second being China.
 
The last three great Islamic Empires.
Ottoman Empire
 
Safavid Empire
 
Mughal Empire
Only Mughal was secular, but the first two, especially Ottoman Empire, ruled and dictated events all over the world. Who is to say Religion, if applied skillfully and with justice, cant be force to promote Power and influence around the world?
 
Modern day nations, like American Empire = Bush is Christian hardcore, America is most conservative Christian country, and their motto is In God We Trust. Its about JUSTICE and EFFICIENY not secular/religious/ethnic/ etc etc etc.
 
3. To a certain extent, an efficient government not neccessarily have to be Democratic, rather any government that increases wealth, influence, and productivity of a nation.
 
Two opposite Superpowers of our time: Chinese Empire and American Empire.
 
America: used to be second to Russian Empire until 1989. Then became number one. They have a government that agrees with the ethos and culture of their people. Hence they are productive. Nowadays, under Bush, they are not. Bush has low popularity (28%), Congress has low popularity and overall economy is doing badly. Not to mention war is slowly becoming an impending Vietnam War Redux.
 
China: communist nation. USA says communism is wrong, but it seems to be doing wonders for China? Why is that? I think it has something to do with the 'group' togetherness culture of the Chinese people. Notice that Russia could not function under Communism - it is not the ethos of their people. They had to embrace a more workable resolution that is in sync with their culture.
 
For all iit is worth, Communism and Democracy are only workable because they are in sync/ in line with the ethos of the people. On the other hand, if a nation like Pakistan was to embrace democracy right now, there would be no more Pakistan. There would be 3 New nations and one self-governing city: Republic of Balochistan, Republic of Sindh, Republic of West Punjab, NWFP would go to Afghanistan up tothe Durand Line, and Karachi would be a city state like Hong Kong and Singapore. In short, SouthEast Europe based ethnic nations would spring up.
 
4. To say Islam is not part of Iran is idiocy. Not only have ethnic Persian clerics raised and taught Islam, even using Persian words for administration in Islamic Empire and beyond - but Persians have heavily contributed to the law, philosophy and learning in Islamic Culture?
 
Heavy names: Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Bukhari, Omar Khayyam, Muhammad al Ghzaali, Al-Razi, etc etc. To say its foreign is ludicrous.
 
5. magyan, you cant assign empty assumptions to other peoples' religions and then ask them "are you kidding me".
 
Do you have any proof that Islam is influenced by Zoroastrianism?
 
How about this assumption i pull out of my ass: India influenced America and ancient Greece. How? The Ancient Vedic Indian City-States were the first to practice Democracy. Hence i believe India invented democracy.
 
Or this one: Lenin was influencd by Mazdak. In fact, we can just call it Neo-Mazdakism instead of Communism.
 
Or this one: Aryabhata, the ancient Indian philosopher, influenced Issac Newton's theory of gravity. Aryabhata was the first in recorded history to put into words the concept of gravity in his native language, therefore you have "got to be kidding me" if you dont believe it.
 
Completely self-serving assumptions.


Edited by Mughaal - 12-Jul-2007 at 00:09
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 10:15
The best ennemy of Islam is The Holy Coran
 
Just get this book and read it
 
I could tell you many things about it but it's worth reading it first
 
And please, do not compare "this" whith Christiannism or "Crusades" (recent term created let's say five centuries ago).
Especially on a forum of people who are supposed to know History Wink
 
This is only the beginning.
 
A few talented and courageous french writers have tried to open the eyes of french people but who really wants to know ?
 
Almost none.
 
You do not have even a small idea of what's happening in my country.
 
We are cowards and condemned to obey the islamic rule in a few years Cry
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 10:28
Originally posted by OSMANLI

An Islamic revolution would be great. All the negative points that previous messages say about current Muslim countries is irrelevent, because there is not a single Muslim land that is in accordence with the Islamic law (Sharia).

The perfect examples of an Islamic government would that of the holy prophet (peace be upon him) and the first four khalifas. During this period Muslim, Christians and Jew all had religios freedom.

Even after this period the Muslim nations achievements and glory was due to the faith in Islam.

Insallah, there will be an increase in the love for Allah and that the Ummah can unify under one khalifa. petty differences should be ignored.

 
Maybe you don't want to talk about what Dhimmitude is :
 
"DEFINITION: The status of People of the Book (Jews and Christians) unders Islamic rule.

DHIMMI HOTSPOTS:
Pakistan: anti-Christian legislation
Iran: Systematic oppression of the Bahai community
Sudan: Murder and enslavement of Black Africans
Saudi Arabia: Apartheid for all non-Muslims
Indonesia: Terrorizing of Christian minorities
Egypt: Oppression of Coptic Christians
Bangladesh: Terrorizing of Hindu and Christian minorities by Islamic radicals

DHIMMI: A BRIEF OVERVIEW
7th-21st century. The notion of Dhimmitude, originating in the 7th century, still applies today to non-Muslims under Islamic rulewhether Jews or Christians, whether in Saudi Arabia or in Sudan. Dhimmitude began in 628 CE when Mohammed and his forces conquered the Jewish oasis at Khaybar. They massacred many of the Jews and forced the rest to accept a pact ("Dhimma") which rendered them inferiror to their Muslim conquerors. Over the centuries, the ideology of Dhimmitude expanded into a formal system of religious apartheid.

Institutionalized apartheid. In Sharia law, there are official discriminations against the Dhimmi, such as the poll-tax or jizya.

No legal rights. Jews may not testify in court against a Muslim and have no legal right to dispute or challenge anything done to them by Muslims. There is no such thing as a Muslim raping a Jewish woman; there is no such thing as a Muslim murdering a Jew (at most, it can be manslaughter). In contrast, a Jew who strikes a Muslim is killed.

Humiliation and vulnerability. Jews and Christians had to walk around with badges or veils identifying them as Jews or Christians. The yellow star that Jews had wear in Nazi Germany did not originate in Europe. It was borrowed from the Muslim world where it was part of the apartheid system of Dhimmitude.

Conditional protection. The protection of the Dhimmi is withdrawn if the Dhimmi rebels against Islamic law, gives allegiance to non-Muslim power (such as Israel), refuses to pay the poll-tax, entices a Muslim from his faith, or harms a Muslim or his property. If the protection is lifted, jihad resumes. For example, Islamists in Egypt who pillage and kill the Copts do so because they no longer pay their poll-tax and therefore are no longer protected."
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 14:25
Originally posted by Adapa

The best ennemy of Islam is The Holy Coran
 
Just get this book and read it
 
I could tell you many things about it but it's worth reading it first
 
And please, do not compare "this" whith Christiannism or "Crusades" (recent term created let's say five centuries ago).
Especially on a forum of people who are supposed to know History Wink
 
This is only the beginning.
 
A few talented and courageous french writers have tried to open the eyes of french people but who really wants to know ?
 
Almost none.
 
You do not have even a small idea of what's happening in my country.
 
We are cowards and condemned to obey the islamic rule in a few years Cry
 
Grand introduction by insulting, and breaking the Code of Conduct. Congrats on your inability to hold a civil discussion.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 04:38
Originally posted by es_bih

Grand introduction by insulting, and breaking the Code of Conduct. Congrats on your inability to hold a civil discussion.
 
I may understand you may be shocked
But have a look at my signature
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...and believe me the words in your posts reflect the mentality of  your signature, but in a most disturbing way!
 
Not very impressive I may add. I few words of advice Adapa. Religion, on AE, should be discussed within a historical framework. One should not violate the Codes of Conduct when doing so. You may want to reivew your violations numbered 3, 5, and 7 of the Coc. The only comments you have made in your last post about Dhimmitude are not violations however. That is a historical arena that can be and has been discussed in AE. On the other hand, your lies about the Quran and reference to cowards is a bad start for you. This is an unofficial warning to do better next time.
 
AE has had its share of Islam bashing and religion bashing. I have no quarrel with you about that. Differences will occur and should be discussed. Hopefully you will write in manner that gets to the heart of your concerns without violating the Coc again. 


Edited by Seko - 18-Jul-2007 at 11:20
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 04:47
Originally posted by Seko

...and believe me the words in your posts reflect the mentality of  your signature, but in a most disturbing way!
 
Not very impressive I may add. I few words of advice Adapa. Religion, on AE, should be discussed within a historical framework. One should not violate the Codes of Conduct when doing so. You may want to reivew your violations numbered 3, 5, and 7 of the Coc. The only comments you have made in your last post about Dhimmitude are not violations however. That is a historical arena that can be and has been discussed in AE. On the other hand, your lies about the Quran and reference to cowards is a bad start for you. This is an unofficial warning to do better next time.
 
AE has had its share of Islam bashing and religion bashing. I have no quarrel with you about that. Differences will occur and should be discussed. Hopefully you will write in manner that gets to the heart of your concerns without violating the Coc again. 
 
Al right Seko Ouch
You are the boss
I wanted first to speek about old Mesopotamia but i couldn't resist answer this topic
 
I am not a poor christian extremist as you may think but just someone, who after the riots in France in the end of 2005 (definitely organized as recently demonstrated by independant sociologists/secret services to destabilize France and Europe) 
The riots were FACTS, and our population was completely disinformed by our government.
 
I then decided to comprehend by myself what was REALLY happening.
So i have read many books (independant islam study is very very recent but some like Anne-Marie Delcambre, for instance are amazing) plus The Coran and i have made my opinion
 
You do not even have an idea of what is happening in my country and i am a little bit hangry about it so pardon me.
You may die for what i have just said there
 
Whatever, i'm gonna flee soon from this Cry
 
SO, I will not talk anymore about this subject which for me needs some "parler franc"
 
Let's talk about other subjects :)
 
P.S. : You can ban me for my last words but i had to say this !
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 13:51
Just because France has gone through some riots, which were caused by decades of French chauvisnism socially, and institutionally does not give you the right to insult a holy book. Comparabely it would be the same as if you had been a immigrant in Tunisia where you were ostracized for being French, for speaking French, for not being of the same religion, you were not allowed to progress, failure was instilled in your mind... and you get tired of this obvious mistreatment, and riots ensue, and then someone attacks your religion for those actions that are between the ones that caused the riot, and the ones rioted upon.
 
 
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 16:35
Okay, that's enough.  Warning to any one else who posts on this line of thought - I'll have this thread closed.
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2007 at 13:42
Do I think the revolution was a sucess?...

Hell yeah!
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