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When did the black slave trade start?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: When did the black slave trade start?
    Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 08:33

Joinville:

I was not debating that point but the idea that Indians were remplaced by other peoples. Which is true in certain degree in some places (North America, Caribbean) but absolutely false in others (Andes, Mexico, Southern South America)

I agree with your statement above. In the Americas there were several forms of explotation besides slavery. The mita system, for instance, that was a tax payed with labour. Perhaps the more widespread system is the middle ages' institution of servs and lords: feudalism. Collie workers and other forms of abusses also existed. No doubt about it.
 
Even more, it is sad to say but still today we can find forms of explotation on immigrants all over the Americas: low payed jobs, insecurity, menace to call the police, etc.
 


Edited by pinguin - 01-Sep-2007 at 08:37
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 06:47
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Joinville

...So in order to make use of these new lands they begged, borrowed, bought and stole people, literally, from other parts of the world. This meant that the New World society didn't become an exact copy of Europe, because over there Europeans introduced slavery, force labour etc., a bunch of social institutions and practices they would not support among themselves at home, or perhaps rather would NO LONGER support at home.


That's not accurate also. The lands were Blacks slaves were introduced in mass were the Caribbean, the United States and Brazil. The others didn't have Black slavery in the same scale at all. Cuba and Domican Republic imported masses of slaves and places like Venezuela, Colombia and Peru still have some minorities of Black people. Some small numbers went to Mexico as well. But in many other countries of Latin America there aren't Blacks this day. That shows slavery was intensive in the Caribbean and the countries sourrounding it, particularly in the U.S. and Brazil, but in other latitudes the idea that Blacks replaced Indians because they were stronger, doesn't apply. Indian and settler labour was very intensive in other places of the America, not only in Canada but also in Mexico and South America.


Even more, mortality between Black slaves in the Caribbean was unbelievable high, no more than a couple of years of survival in some places. They were replaced continuosly.


Pinguin


I think it is.

It's only inaccurate if one concentrates exclusively on the institution of slavery. Which is why I didn't. Labour corves, indentured labour etc. where all ways of ensuring a supply of labour through means no longer accepted in Europe, and it did mean that New World societies did end up working different from European societies.

That was the point, not some factually incorrect statement of slavery as dominating all of the New World, which I didn't in fact make.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 16:44
Black slaves were in use around North Africa and Arabia for many years well before the Europeans had use for them. Trade for Africans happened when the Slavs, yes slaves are derived from Slavs, were under Ottoman control after their conquest of the Balkans therefore the Europeans resorted to using Black Africans.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 10:13
Originally posted by Joinville

...
...
They had a labour shortage that prevented them from fully exploiting all these new resources. The natives often were recalcitrant, even if they weren't they were often too few, and when you found them in good numbers, like in Mexico, they were mysteriously dying in droves, hurting the best laid plans of colonial administrators. The constant shrinking population of New Spain (i.e. Mexico) was a constant worry up until the 18th c. or so.
.
 
That's pretty inaccurate. It is true there were ephidemies all over the Americas, and that they had a demographic impact, but they were not as marked as some historians wants to believe.
 
Indians were not mysteriously dying in doves. They were assimilating and intermarrying, so the pure indian population kept shrinking. It is also innacurate that Indians didn't want to work. In New Spain (Mexico and the Caribbean) the Spaniards forbadde Indian slavery, so the only solution for Caribbean farmers was to import Blacks.
 
By the way, Spaniards started to vaccinate Native Americans in the 18th century.

Originally posted by Joinville

...
So in order to make use of these new lands they begged, borrowed, bought and stole people, literally, from other parts of the world. This meant that the New World society didn't become an exact copy of Europe, because over there Europeans introduced slavery, force labour etc., a bunch of social institutions and practices they would not support among themselves at home, or perhaps rather would NO LONGER support at home.
 
That's not accurate also. The lands were Blacks slaves were introduced in mass were the Caribbean, the United States and Brazil. The others didn't have Black slavery in the same scale at all. Cuba and Domican Republic imported masses of slaves and places like Venezuela, Colombia and Peru still have some minorities of Black people. Some small numbers went to Mexico as well. But in many other countries of Latin America there aren't Blacks this day. That shows slavery was intensive in the Caribbean and the countries sourrounding it, particularly in the U.S. and Brazil, but in other latitudes the idea that Blacks replaced Indians because they were stronger, doesn't apply. Indian and settler labour was very intensive in other places of the America, not only in Canada but also in Mexico and South America.
 
Even more, mortality between Black slaves in the Caribbean was unbelievable high, no more than a couple of years of survival in some places. They were replaced continuosly.
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 31-Aug-2007 at 10:14
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 06:21
Way before Islam came.
 
We know for certain that the absolute majority of slaves in pre-Islamic Arabia were blacks. some of th most promenet of the prophet's companions (Sahaba) were freed black slaves like Wahshi (killer of Hamza and Musailamah the lier), bilal and many others. The reson was the proximity of Africa to Arabia and the existance of Ethiopeans conquerer's who came just before Islam. The sole reason why Arabs preferred black slaves (Arabs don't enslave each other) was their acceptance of the hot climate and the strength. Persian slaves were used as craftsmen but Africans were used in war, shepherding and domestic service. The real start of the black slave trade actually came as history tells us after the stalemate between Arabs and Nubians in the mid 650s I think. To stop Arabs from advancing, gold export and black slave trade was allowed by the Nubian king in exchange for goods from the north. From then, Nubians (who were Christians) would delve deep into the jungles of southern Sudan and Central Africa to capture the people there (who were and still are Pagans) who were known and till are for their huge strength. The market forces of supply and demand played afterwards the deciding factor in the slae trade.
domestic servants were still mostly needed in Arabia where significant black population exist although it is dwarfed by the percentage of African Americans, blacks are 13% in America and as high as 40% in some states but Africans (or freed slaves of any race for that matter) are less than 2% in most Arab countries except Algeria which for different reasons had about 20% of its population in slavery.
 
As for Armenian Survival's note about the Harem, well, the issue is very complex but I can dare say this, the exotic discription that exist in western book has blown out of propertion the reality of the harem. When a Sultan has 1000 women in his Harem that does not mean that all of these women are concubines for his sexual pleasure. Indeed if it were true he must be a superman to do that enormous task LOL. Except for a few select beautiful women, most of the rest are what is know in the west as household ladies in waiting if I got it write who might never see their master. No sane free Muslim (or christian for that matter) would ever think of giving his daughter away to be a lady's maid as was the custom in Europe. actually, I dare say that the women in the Harem had more rights than household ladies in Europe who were subject to the worse abuse including sexual assault or even loss of life and finally shame if they come pregnant with the monarch's illigetimate son despite being free. the Harem became automatically free after the death of a sultan and in many cases, sons of concubines ruled over the legitimate issue of the sultan or the caliph. In fact, from the 36 Abbasid caliphs, at least 30 of them were the issue of concubines (mostly Armenian) not free women.
 
Thank You
 
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 08:11
Yep, you got it right!
 
when people in the modern societies have to work from 08.00h to "when their job is finished" and all the money goes to their employers, I would call that slavery.
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 03:04
Originally posted by gramberto

were slaves held by muslums forced to convert to islam?

when did slavery stop in muslum countries?

Put it like this; slavery hasn't really ended in situations where some are very poor and some are very rich.

Since 2005 we no longer see the three year old kids bought in India tied to horses as "jockeys" in horse races in the Gulf States. If they lived, and it's a bif "if", they were retired at five years of age, to start a new career as beggers. The suspicion is that the practice has just retreated to venues the authorities don't control.

There are still occasional reports of slavery in the Sudan.

Child labour often work under conditions that amount to slavery, even if it's usually not a situation sanctioned by the state. Debt-slavery however still seems to exist in some countries around the world.
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 02:44
Originally posted by rider

Originally posted by Sikander

while the "whicked white Europeans"performed brutal slavery,the
"good-natured Africans/Arabs/etc."treated their slaves in a kind
manner.
Exactly. Didn't we already know that the powerhungry and capitalistic European pigs destroy the lives of other people to take them and their successors into slavery? 1) I don't think the Parliament ever ratified the use of slave-workers. Also, I don't think England proper ever had any slaves. More peasants that were freed. Most bills didn't have a long time of being active in other regions of the state however.2) There were slaves pretty much always in Europe up to the 17/18th centuries. Then it started getting smaller and smaller (the use of slaves). 3) Pretty much every place has used a slave-like and based on the same principles workforce. It wasn't a new concept to anyone.

The problem with slavery in Europe is that the Europeans introduced over there in the newly acquired colonies they picked up.

They had a labour shortage that prevented them from fully exploiting all these new resources. The natives often were recalcitrant, even if they weren't they were often too few, and when you found them in good numbers, like in Mexico, they were mysteriously dying in droves, hurting the best laid plans of colonial administrators. The constant shrinking population of New Spain (i.e. Mexico) was a constant worry up until the 18th c. or so.

So in order to make use of these new lands they begged, borrowed, bought and stole people, literally, from other parts of the world. This meant that the New World society didn't become an exact copy of Europe, because over there Europeans introduced slavery, force labour etc., a bunch of social institutions and practices they would not support among themselves at home, or perhaps rather would NO LONGER support at home.
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 23:13
Originally posted by gramberto

were slaves held by muslums forced to convert to islam?


     I could be wrong, but I don't think so.... or else they would have no legitimation to hold them as slaves (this is what the "Christian" countries did too).



     The black slave trade was actually started by blacks. When tribes had wars they captured people from opposing tribes and held them as slaves. When western explorers saw this practice they figured that these people were already slaves of other tribes, so they had no problem in switching ownership by dealing slaves abroad. Many western slave traders would buy black slaves from the local black slave traders.

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 21-Aug-2007 at 23:14
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  Quote gramberto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 20:57
were slaves held by muslums forced to convert to islam?
 
when did slavery stop in muslum countries?
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 20:21
Originally posted by Sikander

That stuff that Guess heard of sound to me like the "good-savage-myth" propaganda, i.e., while the "whicked white Europeans" performed brutal slavery, the "good-natured Africans/Arabs/etc." treated their slaves in a kind manner.
 
Yes.  The Muslim slave trade, while not as centered around procuring slaves for agricultural labor as in the New World, desired to capture them for domestic use.  This does not mean that they were treated any better.  Many Circassian and European slaves (especially though not exclusively women) had some horrendous experiences as "servants" in harems and seraglios.
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 16:09
Originally posted by Sikander

while the "whicked white Europeans" performed brutal slavery, the "good-natured Africans/Arabs/etc." treated their slaves in a kind manner.


Exactly. Didn't we already know that the powerhungry and capitalistic European pigs destroy the lives of other people to take them and their successors into slavery?


1) I don't think the Parliament ever ratified the use of slave-workers. Also, I don't think England proper ever had any slaves. More peasants that were freed. Most bills didn't have a long time of being active in other regions of the state however.

2) There were slaves pretty much always in Europe up to the 17/18th centuries. Then it started getting smaller and smaller (the use of slaves).

3) Pretty much every place has used a slave-like and based on the same principles workforce. It wasn't a new concept to anyone.
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 08:43

Yes, in some societies slaves couls buy/earn their freedom. Even among the Romans, for instance, a slave could be freed through services (like the succsessful gladiators, for instance). But most of them weren't.

That stuff that Guess heard of sound to me like the "good-savage-myth" propaganda, i.e., while the "whicked white Europeans" performed brutal slavery, the "good-natured Africans/Arabs/etc." treated their slaves in a kind manner.

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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 03:19
Originally posted by Guess

I heard some places that the African slave traders didn't intend slavery to be what the westerners thought it was. That is was temporary. Was that true across the board?
 
Any evidence of that? Selling people and sending them abroad seems pretty permanent to me for those days. No sign of them ever stopping it!
 
Slaves could buy/earn their freedom.
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  Quote Guess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 12:31
I heard some places that the African slave traders didn't intend slavery to be what the westerners thought it was. That is was temporary. Was that true across the board?
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 12:27
In the Archeological Museum in Varna (Bulgaria) there's a golden vessel depicting several black man's heads. Considering that they were surely not "guests" but rather slaves, one can imagine that there were Black slaves in Europe more than 2500 years ago.
 
The Almoravids had thousands of "Sudan" slaves in their army, and even before that there were Black African descendants in the Iberian Peninsula (one of them was a famous poet who had an unfortunate life. I don't remember his name though).
 
The Portuguese, after the first sea voyages on the African coast, started to capture, and then to buy slaves from other African tribes (the African themselves were the main slave-catchers, selling their "merchandise" to the best buyers afterwards).
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 09:41
Slave trade has been going on for millenia and practiced by nearly everyone at some time or another.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 14:13
can you explain a little more about the muslum slave trade in Africa?
 
Trade probably started around the Golden Age of the Middle East. They traded on a mass scale. They would be captured by either North Africans or Middle Easterner and traded.
 
Were there slaves in Europe when the black slave trade started to the Americas?
 
The Blacks role in the slave trade was to provide manual labor in the colonies. I believe the British passed some sort of law prohibiting slaves coming to Britain as there was no need and they did not want them there.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 14:10
Yes, there were a few blacks slaves here and there in Europe by the time. However, the largest importers of Black slaves were the Muslim countries, and that was going on since the Middle Ages.
 
You can see a thread about it in the "history of Africa" section of this forum under "Muslim slavery"
 
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  Quote Guess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 14:06
can you explain a little more about the muslum slave trade in Africa?
 
Were there slaves in Europe when the black slave trade started to the Americas?
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