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 Topic: Steppe Battle TacticsPosted: 12-Oct-2007 at 23:11 |
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Seko bear in mind that Timurids and other Turkic states no longer employed steppe warfare. Steppe warfare revolves around cavalry and cavalry only! In the steppe, and infantryman was a cripple or a child, and footmen were only employed for guarding the jurtas. Even during the Mongol Conquest the Mongols did not use infantry, or even if they did it played almost no role. The only infantry used by the Mongols, was the Hashar, or the hordes of captives used as living shields... The Middleeastern Turkic states no longer employed steppe warfare, as infantry played an important role in their armies.
In typical Steppe warfare, the Mongols tended to use "conventional" tactics, similar to that of Medieval Europe. In steppe warfare, the vanguard played a very important role. Normally it consisted of the best warriors, whereas the rear guard would be composed of "looters" who were responsible for plunder and slave capture. Only later did this change, when Mongols fought non-steppe people. The vanguard would with time be the weakest part of the army.
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Seko
Emperor 
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 06:03 |
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If you read my initial post closely you would see that I wrote: The main tactics revolved around the light horse and her mobile archery. Regarding the Classic Medieval style I also wrote that there were infantries made up of irregulars. Looking at the Mongol seige of Samarkand and Buhkara, the invading forces used irregulars made up of prisoners of war. Though this was not the typical battle style in the open steppe.
The tactics I provided should not be denied whether used in the Steppes of Asia, in Anatolia or the Battle of Ain Jalut.
Mamluk tactics, organisation and weaponry were for the most part derived from those of the Mongols. http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content2.php/cid=274
Tactics of flanking, feigned retreats, and encirclements were used at Manzikert, Ain Jalut, Kalkha river and Mohi i.e.
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Temujin
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Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 17:24 |
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Timurids, at least Tamerlanes army, was 100% in the tradition of Steppe warfare. i think even Baburs army had hardly if any infantry. |
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rider
Tsar 
Suspended Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4664 |
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 19:49 |
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So, you still have some things to add I believe...
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 20:01 |
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Steppe battle tactics were the main tactics of combat in the Central Asia very well until the end of the 19th century.
Moreover, typical steppe warfare techniques were employed by Russian Cossacks as "late" as WWI.
Below is the picture by the famous Russian painter Vereshagin.
It's basically, an episode from the Russian conquest of Central Asia, depicting the surprise attack of the Bokhar Khanate cavalry (main fighting force of khanate which mainly consisted of Nomades) on the Russian infantry unit in some 1870th.
The name of the picture is "Attacking surpsingly" "Нападают врасплох" in Russian.
This kind of attack style is know as lava, in Cossack steppe warfare.  Edited by Sarmat12 - 14-Oct-2007 at 20:05 |
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 22:07 |
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Another interesting picture, called "The battle of Cossacks with Kyrgyzs (Kazakhs)" by the Russian painter Osipov, year 1826
Edited by Sarmat12 - 14-Oct-2007 at 22:12 |
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Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 19:15 |
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no, neither Timurids, nor even Genghisids still used steppe warfare. I doubt Babur fighting in the jungles of India could use steppe warfare
Steppe warfare, is not also a set of tactical manuevres but also logistics, aims, and effects.
It was fought not to conquer but to undermine the enemy's forces in terms of manpower. It was purely based around cavalry(Timurids were known for some parts of professional infantry). Further steppe warfare does not recognise sieges, at which both Mongols and Timurids were adept at.
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Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
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Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 19:27 |
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thats not true, Temurs army was 100% cavalry, read as reference the rise and rule fo tamerlane by beatriz forbes-manz. second, Babur never penetrated as deep as the jungle area of india. his army was mostly Turko-Mongol cavalry and Afgan cavalry. also, siege warfare is not alien to Steppe warfare, see the Avars introduction of the trebuchet to europe. |
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Seko
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Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
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Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 19:58 |
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Saber, an appendix in The Secret Hitory of the Mongols: The Life and Times of Chinggis Khan by Urunge Onon contradicts your position.
Being a pastoral nomdic economy they relied on warcraft passed on down by military traditions and the the art of hunting. High discipline, unity, fine leadership and welfare of the soldiers was of primary importance.
Genghiz's art of war was based on 5 elements. Speed, ferocity, variety of tactics, suddenness and iron discipline. I already mentioned a few of the major ones.
Here are some examples of the author's 16:
Chisel Attack - Cavalry charging the enemy line. Second and third waves would continue to press. Large groups of enemies would not withstand the ferocity of such a charge.
When enemies were in strongholds or forts the Mongols would uses oxen and wild horses to cause confusion.
Amubush - feigned retreat is one example if this. When encountering numerically superior forces the Mongols would lure the enemy into a pursuit. This was used against the Jin army at the Chabchiyal pass. Also in 1222 at the Kala river.
Crescent (arc) formations. Used by most steppe warriors up to the Cossacks.
Encirclement aned Outflanking - circle and enemies rear and flanks to attack on many sides. 1221 against Jalaldn. This was usually after the use of captured irregulars at a main site as an illusion. Crossing the Kizil Kum to outflank the Kwarizmians at Bukhara.
Open ended tactics - leaving a gap in the ranks to allow an enemy to flee. Then slaughter as if on the hunt. At Mohi. Followed by Hot pursuit.
Probably the safest and most heavily used tactic was At-a-distance, Arrow Barrage . Before hand to hand combat the Steppers would most always fire arrows first and foremost. Then swords, maces, lances and axes to finish the job at close quarters.
Edited by Seko - 15-Oct-2007 at 20:40 |
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 21:13 |
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Absolutely doesn't make sense to me.
Chinghizids and Timurids armies as well as the armies of Central Asian rulers up until 19th century consisted 90% from nomadic tribesmen, whose only military training was in the Steppe warfare.
Moreover, some wars in the region like for example Kazakh-Dzhungar conflicts of 17-18th centuries in fact don't differ that much from the typical steppe style conflict of the 13th century.
Dhzungars even introduced artillery through the captured Swede officer to their warfare, but it didn't change their essense of Steppe mounted warriors. Edited by Sarmat12 - 15-Oct-2007 at 21:13 |
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Guests
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Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:45 |
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Temujin, Timur like possibly every mongol princeling(whether turkicized or not, we don't care), had to rely on a tribal following during their rise. Timur as leader of the barlas clan, had initially relied only on his steppe raised, clansmen, as reliance on persian city militia and alikes would be rather foolhardy.
I agree also that during campagins against the Golden Horde and the Chagatai remnants, armies of full horsemen had to be employed, as both foes used the same initial tactics.
Yet during his later reign, i.e after consolidating transaxonia and expanding, he had to include infantry troopers, among them Armenians, Persians at times Syrians, Kurds and Turks. All states in that region employed infantry, from Aq Koyonlu and Qara Koyonlu to the Ottomans.
Seko, your absolutely right, yet I said what I said, in order to define what I understand through steppe warfare, and upon this I expanded my arguments.
Sarmat12, I'm not sure I understand your point. I said, that the Genghisids and successors not used steppe warfare, the warfare which I defined above according to my opinion. I never said they did not use steppe tactics(there's a difference between type of warfare, and tactics). My point is that, Genghisid and successor warfare expanded from steppe warfare(the typical horsemen struggle), to a more, if one could say so, conventional medieval warfare.
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TugZy
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 01-Nov-2008 Location: JP Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Posted: 20-Aug-2009 at 10:12 |
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Well in addition i have one thing that few of u may know.
One thing steppe warriors used during battles was the "Zad-iin arga". Many of it are mentioned in Mongolian Secret History especially during battle of Genghis agaisnt Naimans, Merkits and jamukha.
The "Method of Zad" refers to some shamanistic rituals of such as
1. calling fighting spirits of warriors, after which most of the warriors become battle hungry, eventually becoming like drugged unconscious fightingmachines, etc. The "Har suld" or Black Flag of War is used only in this kind of action.
2.controlling natural forces (fore example, controlling rain, storm, wind and, even causing earthquake on the enemy, freezing the rivers, etc). Frozen rivers were one of the routes into eaurope for them. Even Dunai (?) was frozen only that year which mongols invaded into Hungary which enabled mongols a free passage.
3.Cursing the enemy, for example curses and makes enemy warriors coward during battle.
One of the examples mentioned in Secret history of Mongols, is that Naimans were also shamanistic people and knew "Method of Zad" and while Naimans used it during battle, instead it caused themselves back. due to the powerful defenses of Chinggis' shamans. (see Part 143, in Secret history of Mongols)
Of course this was one of all those core tactics and micros in battle and i really believe that it was the most important feature of mongol army.
Not only Mongols used this "Method of Zad", most of steppe people at least knew it. Even Kamikaze during Khubilai's invasion of Japan was created by similar method from Japnaese shamanists called Shinto. Shamans from Jin/China may also be responsible for the Ugudei Khan's disease after Chinese Invasion. Ugudei Khan eventually recovered after sacrificing his brother Tului for Tengri. It proves that Jurchens also had the same spiritual treatments.
And of course there are numerous examples like that related to shamanism and steppe culture and hope that would be interesting to you guys here.
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