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Topic: War for Nagorno-Karabagh (Artsakh) Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 11:11 |
I think you will replace "Christcrusader"... Good luck...
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Turk
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Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 18:45 |
Originally posted by Molossos
those guys are only capable of wiping out defenseless women and children. |
So I guess the Greek army is a bunch of defenseless women and children.
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Molossos
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Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 21:27 |
I was referring to the brutal genocides your ancestors committed against the Christian populations of Asia Minor and Pontus in case you pretended you didn't understand. By the way, you Turks should cut irony out, you are not good at it and don't try to improve. Stay as you are.
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Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 11:56 |
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Seko
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Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 12:20 |
History is brutal. Certain countries or peoples tried to partition and take land from Turkey and they were kicked out.
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ArmenianSurvival2
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Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 04:07 |
Aright, since this discussion seems to be going closer and closer to nowhere, let me give my opinion on what i have read. Also from my visit to Karabagh in summer of 2004 talking to the locals. The event started out with the Armenian majority in Karabagh wanting to be incorporated into Armenian proper. They voted, and an overwhelming majority wanted Karabagh part of Armenia. There were peaceful protests by Armenians, then the Azeri forces got involved. You cant say who "fired the first shot" because none of us were there and i would have trouble believing either side due to biases. Bottom line is the situation got so bad that the Armenians in the region decided to take up arms and fight the Azeri government, because the Armenians claimed they were being discriminated (there are many reports i have heard of a couple of thousand Armenians killed in Baku). The Armenians took up whatever arms they could, most of them did not have proper military gear. Armenians had no tanks or planes, Azeris had plenty. Azeri military was double in size compared to the Armenian villagers in the region, and Azeris were gaurding cities which literally sit on mountains. The end result was 5,000 Armenian casualties compared to 25,000 Azeri casualties. Armenia took control of the land causing hundreds of thousands of refugees on BOTH sides. I shall continue on with this discussion i have to be somewhere else now.
P.S. I read a bunch of posts on the Armenian genocide in another thread....lets get together and have a mature debate like actual human beings. There is no reason for us to go psycho on each other. Just present your facts and leave your opinions to yourself. Im referring to everyone, not just those who oppose the genocide. Lets at least try to show we can be civil.....
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erdal tigin
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Posted: 03-May-2005 at 10:52 |
Armenians has invaded Karabag and killed many innocent people in Karabagh.Nobody can forget what happened in Hodjacl.This was the repeated terror acts of Armenian terror organizations Tachnak and Hnchak after years later as they did in eastern Anotolia during the 1st World War.They killed many Turkish Civilians and responsible of Turkish massacres.
Armenians should give up invading Karabag and leave the land to Azerbeycan state.
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ramin
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Posted: 03-May-2005 at 11:51 |
Originally posted by Artaxiad
During which years those Armenian Kingdom was
sovreign and existed? |
Are Armenians calling themselves as
Armenian or Hayks? In fact there was never a nation called
Armenian. |
Is this really a serious question? It was sovereign during late
Antiquity, and a few hundred years during the Middle Ages... Some might
also accept Urartu and previous kingdoms as Armenian, but that is
subjected to debate. |
wait a minute! you're
counting years of independent Armenia under an Armenian government?
well count ~ 2000 years of Iranian control over this land for start, then talk about who's got the right for Karabagh
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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ramin
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Posted: 03-May-2005 at 12:08 |
The bottom line is that NOW Karabagh is part of Azerbaijan. Whoever
is unsatisfied with the way S/he is treated can move out to another
place.
Let's
give an example. for instance, I was born in Toronto, I love my
homeland, it's been my family's home for hundreds of years, but now I
feel
terrible; I'm
famous in town because I have a big nose, everytime I go out people
stare and laugh at me. So what do I do? I'd leave for a peaceful place
where all big nose people live together! [My own People!], I won't
run a "revolution" with all big noses to seize Toronto and
become the king of Toronto [The country!]. and then ask the
Federal government [in this case is UN] to recognize Toronto as a
separate and independent country! No... It's not the way it works.
we're in 21th century, you can't invade, conquere, sack, celebrate and
then
control a land. You have to go through politics,
and the most you may get is a political party and just wait and hope
for your party to be elected as the government. THEN, you can have your
independence. and one more thing... if the world supports you, you can
cut a land off a country lost in a war!
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 03-May-2005 at 22:47 |
wait a minute! you're counting years of independent Armenia under an Armenian government? well count ~ 2000 years of Iranian control over this land for start, then talk about who's got the right for Karabagh |
It was called Armenia, even when it was under Persian occupation. Armenians have always formed a majority in Karabagh... This conflict is strictly between Armenians and Azerbaijanis, but if Iran wants Karabagh, Iran should come and get it.
The example about your life in Toronto doesn't work, because Iranians never had a country for themselves in Canada, or have never been a majority. Turks are the ones who ''immigrated'' and occupied Azerbaijan.
And I don't think that you fully understood why the war for Karabagh started. Read http://nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/index.html
It's not the way it works. we're in 21th century, you can't invade, conquere, sack, celebrate and then control a land. You have to go through politics, and the most you may get is a political party and just wait and hope for your party to be elected as the government. THEN, you can have your independence. and one more thing... if the world supports you, you can cut a land off a country lost in a war! |
Tell that to Turkey, and its' occupation of Northern Cyprus.
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Alparslan
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Posted: 04-May-2005 at 01:22 |
Originally posted by Artaxiad
Tell that to Turkey, and its' occupation of Northern Cyprus. |
I will repeat again and again.
If Azeris would have killed and attacked Armenians in that case Armenia would have right to prevent this. But there is not such thing in Karabag.
In Cyprus case:
1) Turkey is one of the guarantor states (Turkey, Greece and UK) of the Republic of Cyprus established according to London - Zurich international treaty. The rights of both communities in the Cyprus constitution have been accepted by tree parties.
2) Greece having been ruled ultra-right colonel junda since 1967. They have organised a coup d'etat in the island in 1974. The chief of this coup was a man called Nikos Simpson. The aim was to annex the island to Greece.
3) Turkey has intervened the island and secured Turkish population by occupying almost half of the island. Turkish population have been executed since 1963 in Cyprus. After this event military regime in Greece has fallen.
4) Turkey and Turkis Republic of Northern Cyprus have accepted the reunification plan of United Nations but Greek part has refused it in 2004 in referandum.
RESULT: There is a huge difference between Cyprus and Karabag.....
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ramin
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Posted: 04-May-2005 at 02:01 |
Originally posted by Artaxiad
It was called Armenia, even when it was
under Persian occupation. Armenians have always formed a
majority in Karabagh... This conflict is strictly between Armenians and
Azerbaijanis, but if Iran wants Karabagh, Iran should come and get it.
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The majority is not the case, the sovereignty of land is. I
have no intention toward the sovereignty over Karabagh by Iran.
However, you may know that Turkmenchai and Golestan treaties are
expired and officially Iran has the right to claim these 2 countries IF
the soviet union wasn't divided.
Originally posted by Artaxiad
The example about your life in Toronto doesn't work, because Iranians never had a country for themselves in Canada
And I don't think that you fully understood why the war for Karabagh started. Read http://nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/index.html |
well
it doesn't matter if Iranians don't have a country or even a city in
Canada, because in my example I wasn't Iranian, but a big nose Canadian
.
I'd rather not to read anything from a biased website. What I know
is that after the fall of USSR, Armenia and Azerbaijan became
independent and their boundaries were established peacefully and
recognized by both of them and the UN.
Originally posted by Artaxiad
It's not the way it works. we're in 21th century, you can't
invade, conquere, sack, celebrate and then control a land. You have to
go through politics, and the
most you may get is a political party and just wait and hope for your
party to be elected as the government. THEN, you can have your
independence. and one more thing... if the world supports you, you can
cut a land off a country lost in a war! |
Tell that to Turkey, and its' occupation of Northern Cyprus.
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I
don't believe there's a need to turn this topic to another
Turk-Greco-Armenian topic. Turkey and Azerbaijan are NOT related in
this case. They are two different countries with 2 different
governments, even though they may be from the same race.
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 04-May-2005 at 08:19 |
Originally posted by ramin
What I know is that after the fall of USSR, Armenia and Azerbaijan became independent and their boundaries were established peacefully and recognized by both of them and the UN. |
But what you didnt know is whats most important. When Stalin was in power in the USSR he took the regions of Karabagh and Naxichevan from Armenia and granted it to Azerbaijan. Both areas had Armenian majorities, except now Naxichevan has seen all of its Armenian population exiled. This was not the case in Karabagh, where the Armenians remained the majority even after the fall of the USSR.
Originally posted by ramin
I don't believe there's a need to turn this topic to another Turk-Greco-Armenian topic. Turkey and Azerbaijan are NOT related in this case. They are two different countries with 2 different governments, even though they may be from the same race. |
Sometimes being part of the same ethnicity transcends government and politics. If Turkey and Azerbaijan were not related in this case, then why has Turkey blockaded its border with Armenia? It is obviously the result of the conflict in Karabagh, and they logically chose to side with their own ethnicity. If Turkey chooses to pick sides and enforce a blockade, then what is the use to differentiate them from their Azeri counterparts?
BTW, i will be in Karabagh in 3 weeks .
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 10-May-2005 at 22:46 |
Here's some footage from the Karabagh war (from the Armenian side, of course), coupled with patriotic music
http://www.jdemirdjian.com/2005Armenian%20Songs/Artzakh_vide o.wmv
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Alparslan
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Posted: 11-May-2005 at 01:40 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Sometimes being part of the same ethnicity transcends government and politics. If Turkey and Azerbaijan were not related in this case, then why has Turkey blockaded its border with Armenia? It is obviously the result of the conflict in Karabagh, and they logically chose to side with their own ethnicity. If Turkey chooses to pick sides and enforce a blockade, then what is the use to differentiate them from their Azeri counterparts?
BTW, i will be in Karabagh in 3 weeks .
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We do not have much difference from each others. I can call myself Azeri..... We speak the same language, I can almost %90 understand Azeri TV.
But with Armenians it seems like they will have demands on Turkey. It is sure that they hate us. So why should I love someone who hates me? It is sure that they want to harm us..... Why shouldn't I take the appropriate measure against this?
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 11-May-2005 at 15:43 |
Originally posted by Alparslan
But with Armenians it seems like they will have demands on Turkey. It
is sure that they hate us. So why should I love someone who hates me?
It is sure that they want to harm us..... Why shouldn't I take the
appropriate measure against this? |
Deporting Armenians is completely fine, but when we wage an official
war and win, suddenly its a humanitarian crime. I dont understand this,
your input on this comment would be appreciated.
You have to look at this from its proper context. In the eyes of
Armenians (and others), the Turkish governments have oppressed and nearly destroyed
our nation. Then the oppression in Azerbaijan which gave rise to the
war. I dont think you would take it lightly if the same thing happened
to Turkey. So if you were in our shoes youd be pretty pissed off. Think
about it from our point of view for a few minutes. I mean really think
about it. Then you can do anything you want, i just want you to think
about it.
And Armenians dont hate Turks. The Armenians in Armenia do not even
mention Turks. When i went there for 2 weeks last year, not one person
i talked to mentioned anything about the Turks or Turkey, unless it was
part of the historical tour. But do they push for genocide recognition?
Of course. You cannot compare wanting to recognize the genocide with
hate. I have no right to hate your people, and i dont, but i have every
right to hate your government, and i do. Unless you worship your government, this shouldnt upset you. Stop thinking that
we hate Turks because we want the genocide recognized. We are not
saying "All Turks killed Armenians", we are saying "The Turkish
Government killed Armenians". Huge difference.
I dont like the American government, either. Does that mean i hate Americans?
No, I myself am an American, i just dont agree with the elite class,
thats all. Do not make the mistake of equating this to hate.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 17:49 |
Since some people are talking about the war in Karabagh in the Genocide
thread, i figured i would bump up this thread for people who want to
discuss it.
There is still no reply to my last post. I would like the Turkish forumers thoughts on it.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Justice
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Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 12:40 |
From what i saw in my research from University sources
Garabakh is part of Armenian for more than 2000 thousands of years and
there was never such nation as Azerbaijan up untill a century ago.
Garabakh was part of Armenia and the vast majority of the area was
populated by Armenians.Then Stalin gave it to Azerbaijan as an
''autonomous region'' ,and altered the boundaries so that Karabakh was
cut off from Armenia and was smaller in size.
The next 70-plus years witnessed Azeri persecution of Armenian in attempt to drive them out and replace them with Azeris,as was done in the Armenian territoy of Nakhichevan.
In February 1988 there was a progrom (massacre) against Armenians in Sumgait, a suburb of Baku ,the capital of Azerbaijan.In November of 1988, there was a pogrom against Armenians in Kirvoabad(now Ganja),in the interior of Azerbaijan.In 1889-90 there are joint Soviet-Azerbaijan forced deportations of Aremenians
living in towns and villages of Azerbaijan bordering
Nagorno-Karabakh.In January of 1990,there was a pogrom against
Armenians in Baku itself.
If anyone accused for Genocide here is Azerbaijan and they should
be taken to the international, court not only for commiting atrocities directed by their Goverment but
because of being blatant liars and inventing a Genocide while they were
the agressors in the first place and lost the war,by a bunch of
volunteers from what i saw
Sources taken from University Michigan - Dearborn.
If it is to alter my statements use an Official University sourse or you will be ignored for making propaganda, as usual.
Check the link
http://www.umd.umich.edu/debt/armenian/facts/karabakh.html
Or
Google Dearborn Karabakh and the second link is the Fact Sheet.
http://google.com/search?hl=en&q=Dearborn+Karabakh&b tnG=Google+Search
Edited by Justice
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THEY WILL NOT PASS
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 20:30 |
Yes, no one ever mentions the province of Nakhichevan. In 1920, over
90% of the population was Armenian. Now, the population is over 90%
Turkish, and there are no Armenians left in the province. The province
belongs to Azerbaijan, and it is not even connected to Azerbaijan
proper.
Likewise, the Azeris tried to do the same thing in Karabagh. Making
living conditions tough for Armenians while purposely moving tens of
thousands of Turks into the province. Azerbaijan was successful in
destroying the Armenian population in Nakhichevan, but Karabagh proved
to be too tough for them.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
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Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 11:30 |
hah men are you crazy of 90 percent are you crazy i think you don't know history well you armenins or russians can you don't want us to be connected to Turkey am i right of course yes and you can't say nothing to me expect lie it's real history men but no Country wants to accept it b/c we are muslims and you europens want to muslims to be weak and there was no population of 90 percent don't say lies then in 1918 Azerbaijan had benn properly been connected to Nachcivan but then USSr took Zangazur and gave it to you so threre wouldn't be properly coonection beetweb turkish peole and Azeris. men read hisory again and carfuuly and pls don't say lies
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