War for Nagorno-Karabagh (Artsakh)

What do you think about the war for Nagorno-Karabagh (also called Artsakh in Armenian), between Armenia and Azerbaijan? Here's some information about it from Encarta:

Historically, the area belonged to Armenians, more than to Azerbaijanis. It was once part of the Armenian kingdom. In contrast, there was never a nation called ''Azerbaijan'' in that area. The ''real'' Azerbaijan (or Adurbadagan) was the one in Northern Iran... but it had never extended its' control over Karabagh. Azeris are mostly descendants of Turkic and Tatar tribes from Central Asia. Armenian princes, or Meliks, kept a degree of autonomy even during foreign control...

During which years those Armenian Kingdom was sovreign and existed?

From your point of view Turks may claim rights on Ottoman Empire's territories?

Are Armenians calling themselves as Armenian or Hayks? In fact there was never a nation called Armenian.

They did not keep a degree of authonomy. The authonomy was given by Turks.

You are right about the desendants of Azeris but they are also mixed with other nations in the area to some extent. It is the same for Armenians as well........ Just make a deep research on especially in Cilicia.... They were not even talking Armenian at the beginning of 20th century. They were Turkish speakers of Gregorian Church but now they are become Armenians. Their origin is most probably Turkic or they were Turkic in big majority.

Is this really a serious question? It was sovereign during late Antiquity, and a few hundred years during the Middle Ages... Some might also accept Urartu and previous kingdoms as Armenian, but that is subjected to debate.

Armenians called their Kingdom ''Hayk'' or ''Hayastan'', others called it ''Armenia''. It doesn't really mean anything.

Read some non-Turkish websites about Armenian History.

No. Unlike the Armenians in Karabagh, the Turks were't a majority in Ottoman territories outside Anatolia. They even struggled to reach the numbers of Greeks and Armenians, in Western and Eastern parts of the empire, respectively.

They had an autonomy only in certain regions. Turks weren't the only ones who ruled those areas, and they didn't get the autonomy from Turks... they obtained them.

About Cilician Armenians... maybe you're right. Somewhere, I read about a Christian Turkish tribe, called Karamanlides (the tribe was sent to Greece later on) But in certain regions such as Cilicia, we weren't allowed to speak Armenian.

There might be 1 million refugees, but Azeris aren't the only refugees. There are Armenian refugees too.

Here's what a non-Azeri, non-Armenian site has to say about Azeri refugees:

from http://www.refugeesinternational.org/content/article/detail/ 826/?mission=1694

So the numbers aren't as high as you said (1 million). You can't round up numbers for things as serious as this. There are also approximately 200 000 to 300 000 Armenian refugees, but they are usually ignored because Armenia won the war.

I am not denying the fact that there was an Armenian Kingdom in late antiquity which has been destroyed by "others" (non-Turks).  What I want to say is that if your point of view is only based upon "a kingdom in a specific period of time in history" so that others will show you tens of different states. Azeri are not different than Turkey's Turks we are both belong to the Oghuz branch of Turks. They established Selchuk, Akkoyunlu, Karakoyunlu and also Safavid states in the same region. We can also say that they also established Ottomans and Turkey.

You cannot say that "a nation like Azeris is nonexist". They may call themselves differently such as Oghuz or Akkoyunlu or something different as you called yourselves Hayk but not Armenian. 

The one who belongs to Gregorian Armenian Church was called Armenian regardless of his/her ethnicity. Ethnic Armenians who accepted Islam was considered as Turks. Ottomans have never put pressure on religion and especially on language. If you think about the conditions of 18 or even 19th centuries (before it was much more worst)  the educational system is not developed enough and there was not mass communication tools to make speak a huge Armenian population Turkish. In addition, as I said previously Ottomans had not an intention for this at all.

That is why I think the mother langue is important for me to understand the ethnicity of a group of people in Ottoman Empire regardless of their religion.

At the end of 19th century missionaire schools have been established in many part of Ottoman Empire to give national identities, feelings and nationalism to Christians of Anadolia. In Cilicia, Armenian nationalists have banned talking Turkish but they have faced a real big problem since people could not speak Armenian. (I will try to find sources)

Those days were one of the most dramatic days of history. Collapse of an huge Empire of 600 years old combined with imperialistic manipulations, interests and continous wars. People of the same culture and even same ethnicity fall apart and become enemy to each other.

We have to find each others again and live side by side in peace. We belong to the same family in fact.   

what i really wanted to mean is that this occupation,this aggression must be given an end!

You asked us about what we thought about the war on Karabagh.

I think it's a good way to solve the problem (we know how the Armenians of Karabagh would respond) but for some reason, Azerbaijan doesn't want to negociate with Karabagh. Armenians of Karabagh would never want to join Azerbaijan without a proper fight.

I hope this doesn't remain unresolved like Cyprus...

Man,a solution under the administration of Robert Kocharian and with the participation of Dashnag extremists in the government would never be on the horizon.

You could negotiate with moderate Levon Ter-Petrosian but how would you accomplish with that Kocharian and his guys..

He and Dashnags uses Armenian  nationalism so that they could hide armenia's future big population and economic problems..These Armenain extremists demand lands from   Azerbajian,Georgia and finally from Turkey.is this a healthy policy?

All these countries are the neighboors of Armenia.All these co�untries are those Armenia is destinied to live the next door.By demanding lands from each,what do the Armenian politicians predict for the future...???

Unfortunately,Armenia profoundly lacks of realist politicians..

i would never be suprised if you guys say one day in future that california rightfully belongs to Armenians.

Azerbajian does 'not' lack of realist politicians.In Fact Azerbajian policy is quite rational for the Azeri people of the caucasus...Azerbajian maintains good relations with Iran,Georgia,Iran and Turkey.Even recently they have started to enhance their realations with RUSSIA together...

On the other hand,Armenia will be an isolated island in the caucasus very soon due to its quack politicians.

Originally posted by Artaxiad i would never be suprised if you guys say one day in future that california rightfully belongs to Armenians. Laugh as much as you want. You know well that what I said was true.

if i know something well,it is the fact that dream power is not helpful but rather harmful as long as you adopt it as your life philosophy.

The Armenian relations with Iran is indeed great as you said.But relations in future with Russia will not be like old days.Recently,both Turkey and Azerbajian have extended their relations with Russia.what is more,The Georgian Saakashvili is an American-supported leader,who maintains a close,personal friendship with Aliyev.Believe me,American decision-makers would not be that happy to see an Iranian-Armenian alliance in the caucasus...The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline is the bext example to disrubition of balances in the region..the pipeline could have been built in Iran and Armenia...it would have been much cheaper..But noone thought about this option.Moreover,the honeymoon between Armenia and Europe must have  already ended that Europe condems the Armenian occupation in Nagarno-Karabagh and deeply critisizes its policy toward refugees.Ofcourse,as you have already reinforced,others care about the Azeri Oil.what is wrong with that? 

if i were you,i would really worry about the population statics of Armenia.Acording to the statics,if the same migration rate continues,there will be no people left in Armenia within a century.