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African presence in America: Pre-columbus

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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: African presence in America: Pre-columbus
    Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 17:05

The first civilization of ancient America is called the Olmec.  It was located along the Mexican Gulf Coast and began more than three thousand years ago.  The most significant and widely acknowledged sculptural representations of African people in the Western Hemisphere (the "New World") were sculpted by the Olmecs.  The Olmec developed the first civilization of the Americas.  At least seventeen monumental basalt stone heads, each weighing ten to forty tons, have been unearthed in Olmec sites along the Mexican Gulf Coast.  One of the first European-American scientists to comment on the Olmec heads, archaeologist Mathew Stirling, described their facial features as "amazingly Negroid."

Although major aspects of Olmec culture and history remain vague, enough has been recovered to demonstrate a significant African presence in the Americas many centuries before the advent of the trans-Atlantic slave trade.  Some scientists have even concluded that the Olmecs may have originally been an African settler-colony.  Others are convinced that the African presence among the Olmecs was confined to a small and highly-influential elite community.

Native legends of the Americas abound with the exploits of early Black people.  In the Southwest Indian story of the Emergence, a story that is as important in the region as the Book of Genesis is to Christians, the First World is called the Black World! 

During his third voyage, Columbus recorded that when he reached Haiti the resident population informed him that Black men from the south and southeast had preceded him to the island.  In 1513, Balboa found a colony of Black men on his arrival in Darien, Panama.  All of these facts, buttressed by skeletons and sculptures, make it clear that African people had a profound presence and influence in pre-Columbian America.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 17:55

Your post contain several mistakes:

(1) The first cilivization of the Americas are not the Olmecs but Caral.
 
(2) The famous head stones are representation of people, not Africans.
 
(3) The Olmec culture is not that vague because there is a good deal of knowledge about it. For instance, it is know it wasn't the first culture in the region at all.
 
(4) South West Indians were in contact with Africans in post-colombian times. It is nothing strange they have some myth about Blacks.
 
(5) West Africans of the times of the Olmecs lacked writing. Actually, they didn't know how to build ships either. The more advanced nautical device they had at the time was the log canoe.... no more comments.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 20:01
Surmount, your post has no mistakes except that it doesn't agree with pinguins narrow views of pre columbian history.  It especially puts Africans on the same level with Amerindians, which is beyond pinguins ability to accept.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 20:13
Originally posted by red clay

Surmount, your post has no mistakes except that it doesn't agree with pinguins narrow views of pre columbian history.  It especially puts Africans on the same level with Amerindians, which is beyond pinguins ability to accept.
 
Dear red clay, my views about this topic are not narrow minded. Are based in knowledge and not biggotry against Amerindians, that's all.
 
Just leave the Amerindian heritage intact and it will be fine with me.
 
I hate lies, that's why I hate those clowns called Van Sertima and Clyde Winters that have played with the innocence of Black Americans.
 
I just hate when people robb the Amerindian heritage, that's all.
 
 
 
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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 05:24
So if Nubian art styles are very similar to Mesoamerican painting (head in profile, body facing forward, word glyphs surrounding), perhaps ancient Mesoamericans sailed across the Atlantic, around Africa, walked across Ethiopia, and then started building steep-angled pyramids along the upper Nile? LOL Or perhaps it's more likely the Nubians built those pyramids all by themselves?

I'm not a historian, but I am an artist. If I had to carve a face out of a giant boulder I'm pretty sure I would make it square-jawed and flat-nosed just so I could finish the darn thing faster. How African do the Olmec heads appear if you look at them in a side view?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 09:36
Originally posted by jdalton

So if Nubian art styles are very similar to Mesoamerican painting (head in profile, body facing forward, word glyphs surrounding), perhaps ancient Mesoamericans sailed across the Atlantic, around Africa, walked across Ethiopia, and then started building steep-angled pyramids along the upper Nile? LOL Or perhaps it's more likely the Nubians built those pyramids all by themselves?

I'm not a historian, but I am an artist. If I had to carve a face out of a giant boulder I'm pretty sure I would make it square-jawed and flat-nosed just so I could finish the darn thing faster. How African do the Olmec heads appear if you look at them in a side view?
 
Similar arts are found across the cultures. There are many ancient mayan drawings that look like a Walt Disney cartoon... no kidding.
 
Mesomericans didn't reach Africa. The only large portion of land conquered from the mainland Americas was the Caribbean by the Arawak peoples of Venezuela. But you can see in the map that the distances were sort.
 
Now, the "mystery of the African" heads is simple. If you are an artist (I hope sculptor) you will realize that working with basalt is a hard job. Notice that the heads are sort of cubes instead of round, because they were recycled sacrificial stones. When you work with hard materials you try to convey the idea of volumen exagerating the patterns in the surface. That's the mystery of those stone heads. The subjects were Amerindians, of course. Olmecs, left thousand of realistic portraits of themselves so it is not hard to find the comparisons.
 
I believe Nubians have all the necesary to develop theirs own pyramids. Now, I also think Great Zimbabwe was build by the people of the region. And I don't like those ideas that say that "white man" tought the skills to poor aboriguinals, so Zimbabwe had to me made by phoenicians!
 
That's called cultural colonialism. I just don't want the same is done against the Olmecs.
 
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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 00:49
Originally posted by pinguin

Mesomericans didn't reach Africa.

I know, I was kidding.

Unlike Pinguin I'm inclined to believe that there may have been all sorts of unrecorded pre-colonial ocean crossings. I think Zhenghe's fleet probably went to the Caribbean, that the Inca and Easter Islanders probably met, that Marco Polo actually did get to China (some people say now that he didn't), and that the Phonecians circumnavigated Africa. So maybe a few West Africans did make it to Mexico, I don't know. But there's all sorts of evidence that this sort of thing didn't happen very often if indeed it happened at all. Certainly none of these events had a great impact on the cultures involved or they would be easier to prove- like the Gypsies showing up in Europe or the Vikings in Newfoundland.

I'm convinced that the Upper Nile Pyramids were built by Nubians, Great Zimbabwe was built by the Shona, Benin City was built by West Africans, and the Olmec heads were carved by and of Mesoamericans. Nothing else makes sense.


Edited by jdalton - 16-Aug-2007 at 00:53
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 09:45
Originally posted by jdalton

Originally posted by pinguin

Mesomericans didn't reach Africa.

I know, I was kidding.

Unlike Pinguin I'm inclined to believe that there may have been all sorts of unrecorded pre-colonial ocean crossings.
 
Well, most people is "inclined" to believe that, but it is not what science shows at all. There is not evidence of pre-colonial long trips to the Americas. For the Inuits reaching the Americas it was easy, just some miles rowing in a Kayak from Siberia is enough. For the Norse it was also quite easy. Come on, Greenland is just across the Americas and you can see it from there in a clear day from the top of some mountains! The Norse achievement was a piece of cake. Shameful as it may sound.
Reaching the Americas from high seas was thougher, and there is no evidence any other people, but the Iberians, did. For that, you needed not only better ships but a knowledge a lot higher that the rest of the world had.
 
Originally posted by jdalton

I think Zhenghe's fleet probably went to the Caribbean, that the Inca and Easter Islanders probably met, that Marco Polo actually did get to China (some people say now that he didn't), and that the Phonecians circumnavigated Africa. So maybe a few West Africans did make it to Mexico, I don't know.
 
I do know. That's bull. There is not evidence of Zhenghe's fleet in the Americas at all. Otherwise the pests that decimated Natives had started earlier!
 
Originally posted by jdalton

But there's all sorts of evidence that this sort of thing didn't happen very often if indeed it happened at all. Certainly none of these events had a great impact on the cultures involved or they would be easier to prove- like the Gypsies showing up in Europe or the Vikings in Newfoundland.
 
Well the impact of Norse on North America was nill.

Originally posted by jdalton


I'm convinced that the Upper Nile Pyramids were built by Nubians, Great Zimbabwe was built by the Shona, Benin City was built by West Africans, and the Olmec heads were carved by and of Mesoamericans. Nothing else makes sense.
 
I am convinced to. That's why I hate when mormons start to tell theirs history about the Lamanines, Jesus in the Americas and the lost tribe of Israel LOLLOLLOL
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Aug-2007 at 09:47
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  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 23:39
while i welcome the movement that doesn't underestimate the abilities of the ancients, it's a little presumptuous to come to radically novel conclusions on circumstantial evidence.

it's one thing to notice the circumstantial evidence, and wonder; it's another thing to assert that it means something.
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 01:52
Have you looked into topic. The people living there even described the African presence. Look up the scripts.
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 02:21
Olmec Helmets are very similar to those worn by the Nubians and West Africans of ancient times. Both are made of a combination of Leather and metal.
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 02:23

This head has a genetic feature that is found among Africans in Ghana. That feature is the distinct line on the lips that was so expertly carved in. The Helmet is also similar to helmets created by the Pan-Nubian civilization that spread from Southern Egypt and Sudan to West Africa.
 

 

 

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 10:01

This topic has already been discussed fully in here. Please, don't repeat the same absurd ideas like a parrot... I beg you.

Olmecs weren't Black like you. They were Amerindians. Period.
 
Some time ago we develop a series about Afrolunacy. It was about the Black Vikings, Black China and Black Olmecs, you can find the oppinions on the site looking for "Lunacy of Afrocentrism".
 
The discussion about Van Sertima's lie about Black Olmecs in on here. See the arguments and come back.
 
 
 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 14:38
This is a Tzotzil person from the Chiapas region of Mexico (where the cradle of the Olmec civilization was). If you're going to contend that he looks African, I would invite you to take a look at other people who are distantly related to the Native Americans, such as the Cambodians or the Philippinos...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 15:00

This is actually a very realistic portrait of real Olmecs. They were Amerindians, and you can find the obvious similarities with the stone heads looking at it.

 
 
And if you are still skeptical, look at this animation...
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 15:38
actually I stand with Pinguin, there is no proff the africans reached the ameircan continent, or vice versa.
 
If one day something that proff it shows up, no allarm from me, but uintill then, the idea of africans in precolumbian america, it's just science fiction.
 
 
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 00:26
Penguin i see what your trying to say with one statue, but nobody is saying that they were originally African or all African. The article is just saying Africans were there. Which some ancients scripts even say.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 00:44
Originally posted by Surmount

Penguin i see what your trying to say with one statue, but nobody is saying that they were originally African or all African. The article is just saying Africans were there. Which some ancients scripts even say.
 
No fellow. It offends me that you insist in robbing the heritage of Native Americans.
 
Your sources all point to a sect of Afrocentrists that was started by Ivan Van Sertima, a clown from Suriname and not a scientist at all.
 
Please don't insist. Your ideas are wrong, false and offensive.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 18-Aug-2007 at 00:45
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 01:24
What!Shocked

Are you serious!

your offended just by the fact that Africans were there.

Why are you making such a big deal about Africans being in the Americas before Columbus.

Its not that big of a deal.

Even some hispanics and caucasians believe that there were africans in that region. It has nothing the do with Afrocentrism.
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  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 01:25

"pan-nubian" usually sounds the alarm for me. we know so little about the nubians, let alone west africa of antiquity.

pan-nubian civilization stretching from sudan to west africa? but they didn't leave any roads, linguistic markers, or folklore behind.
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