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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Origin of Tatar
    Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 12:48
In fact, many of them view Khazan Khanate as the successor of Bulgar state.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 06:47
As for Volga Tatars, I heard that whether one identifies with "Bulgar" or "Tatar" depends on political inclinations.
 
Most practising Muslims, or those proud of their MUSLIM heritage more than their Turkic origin tend to call themselves "Bulgars".
On the other hand, those who are more proud of their past as the "Kazan Khanate" tend to call themselves "Tatars".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 23:55

barbar,

however we should be careful in analysing the names, as the first part should give a definate meaning. I mean: What "tat", "Maj", "Khas" etc mean?

 

Is that so important nowadays? The Turkic tribes named themselves as they would like I am sure. The names were from geographical points as a hill (Turk) or a river (Mish), from a personal name (Uzbek), from  their own characteristics (Kyrgyz steppe crossers), even from their clothes (Kara kalpak black hat) and so on.  I have met the explanation of Tatar as River men when some of them lived near the Amur River.

 

Sorry for Uyghur

 

Kerimoglu,

btw, I met a tatar girl, in Moscow, after 2 days we were easely able to speak without translation

Why, it is not very difficult for a young man and a girl at all, regardless of their nations, ah? (if they are interested in each other) (trying to joke).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 13:01
Originally posted by Kann

I think the word Tatar means Tat-man. We have or had many other "men" around BulgAR, KhasAR, MajAR (Hungarians), MishAR, maybe UhigAR and so on. Besides we called all our northeren forest nations as ARs without the personal names. The suffix -ER is right also I'm sure.

 
Welcome, I also tend to agree that "Er" as a tribal name suffix was used  among Turkic tribes, however we should be careful in analysing the names, as the first part should give a definate meaning. I mean: What "tat", "Maj", "Khas" etc mean?
 
In fact, among European huns, there were tribes with the suffix variant of "Er", which was "Ir", such as Aghachiri 
 
BTW, Uyghur isn't Uhigar, instead UY-Oghur.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 03:22
btw, I met a tatar girl, in Moscow, after 2 days we were easely able to speak without translation
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 02:09

Thanks for wellcomes.

"Are you Kazan or Crimean Tatar?"

I am a Tatar. As I've said the settlements corresponding with my family name (it is clear Tatar name not Arabic) were both in Crimea and Urals. I think we are Tatars and the language and anthropology differences are due to our historical locations and isolation only. Sadly the relations between Kazan and Crimea peoples on a personal level are very little. As for Siberians the things are better with migration of "Kazanly" to the East and with our "shift workers" on the oil-fields. But along with our intermixation a part of the Siberian Tatars demands to stay as Siberians, different from Kazanly. We don't mind. Our mishars beleve they are the best Tatars. We also don't mind.

Isenmesez, Sarmat12

Yes, I agree with you. Many Tatars beleve that they origin from Volga Bulgars. We don't mind. They are also ...ARs.

As for Chingizkhan he was born and lived in a place where Chinees located the Black Tatars. Nearer to China they lockated White Tatars and far from the Blacks - the Wild (savage) Tatars. China knew nothing about the latters.

But there is a fact that many of the Chingizkhan's warriors and warlords named different East European tribes as their "brothers" and communicated with them without interpreters.

 

 



Edited by Kann - 02-Sep-2007 at 03:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 12:08
Originally posted by Kann

Hello, everybody

By the chance I have found your forum and I'd like to bring my fourpenny to this conversation if you don't mind. Sorry for my poor English I'll try to do my best.

I am a native Tatar so the problems of my people origins are important to me also. The "historians" may say what they want but many of our fellows have their own opinions. So am I. I like very much folk music from North part of China, it is "for my soul", I consider Khakas, Uhigur people as my relatives (they are like my old fellows no matter the fact I was born in Ufa and live in Tatarstan). Besides I have a family name rather rare among my nation and that name has corresponding locations in Crimea and South Urals.

I think the word Tatar means Tat-man. We have or had many other "men" around BulgAR, KhasAR, MajAR (Hungarians), MishAR, maybe UhigAR and so on. Besides we called all our northeren forest nations as ARs without the personal names. The suffix -ER is right also I'm sure.

Not long ago one of our sites launched a trend in English. We can give answers to your questions there if we could.

The topic is "Tatars in America". Who was the first (Known) Tatar to America?

http://www.tatforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=5659&view=getnewpost

Respectfully, Kan

 
Isenmesez Kan,
 
I think it's rather your personal opinion, though. My Tatar friends, on the contrary, consider themselves to be more Bulgars and don't like the name "Tatar." On the other hand, I read an opinion on one Tatar website that Chingizkhan was a Tatar himself. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 09:12
Originally posted by Kann

Hello, everybody

By the chance I have found your forum and I'd like to bring my fourpenny to this conversation if you don't mind. Sorry for my poor English I'll try to do my best.

I am a native Tatar so the problems of my people origins are important to me also. The "historians" may say what they want but many of our fellows have their own opinions. So am I. I like very much folk music from North part of China, it is "for my soul", I consider Khakas, Uhigur people as my relatives (they are like my old fellows no matter the fact I was born in Ufa and live in Tatarstan). Besides I have a family name rather rare among my nation and that name has corresponding locations in Crimea and South Urals.

I think the word Tatar means Tat-man. We have or had many other "men" around BulgAR, KhasAR, MajAR (Hungarians), MishAR, maybe UhigAR and so on. Besides we called all our northeren forest nations as ARs without the personal names. The suffix -ER is right also I'm sure.

Not long ago one of our sites launched a trend in English. We can give answers to your questions there if we could.

The topic is "Tatars in America". Who was the first (Known) Tatar to America?

http://www.tatforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=5659&view=getnewpost

Respectfully, Kan

 
 
It's nice to have an opinion from a Tatar first-hand.
Welcome to the forum.
Are you Kazan or Crimean Tatar?
 
What is the relation between Kazan, Crimean, and Siberian Tatars apart from the ancestral Golden-Horde connection?
 
Is there much intermixing between distinct Tatar groups?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 01:43

Hello, everybody

By the chance I have found your forum and I'd like to bring my fourpenny to this conversation if you don't mind. Sorry for my poor English I'll try to do my best.

I am a native Tatar so the problems of my people origins are important to me also. The "historians" may say what they want but many of our fellows have their own opinions. So am I. I like very much folk music from North part of China, it is "for my soul", I consider Khakas, Uhigur people as my relatives (they are like my old fellows no matter the fact I was born in Ufa and live in Tatarstan). Besides I have a family name rather rare among my nation and that name has corresponding locations in Crimea and South Urals.

I think the word Tatar means Tat-man. We have or had many other "men" around BulgAR, KhasAR, MajAR (Hungarians), MishAR, maybe UhigAR and so on. Besides we called all our northeren forest nations as ARs without the personal names. The suffix -ER is right also I'm sure.

Not long ago one of our sites launched a trend in English. We can give answers to your questions there if we could.

The topic is "Tatars in America". Who was the first (Known) Tatar to America?

http://www.tatforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=5659&view=getnewpost

Respectfully, Kan

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 15:15

I agree, but it already known that Azerbaijanis are known as Azeri, even though this is not the historically right word to describe in fact.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 14:18
Kamran, I meant there is or  are/were people in Iran who spoke the language called Azari (probably simialr to persian) - which doesnt have anything to do with Azerbaijani Turkish. And most of the Iranian Azerbaijanis call themselves Turk or Turki.

Edited by Emil_Baku - 24-Aug-2007 at 14:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 13:19
I didn't add it. You can check the book I mentioned. You can find this sentence (the exact quote, containing the word 'Tatar')in Ergin version of Orkhon Inscriptions, too.

Also, forumers can find an English translation of 'Bilge Qaqan' and 'Kl Tegin' at www.culture.mn

You can see this article either under 'Turkic Monuments' section or simply by searching the site:

'Listen to the end that which I state to you, you who come after me, my younger brothers(?), my princes, and all together, members of my race, as well as you my people; to the right, you noble shadapits; to the left, you nobles and tarkat(?) officers, you [nobles . . . of the?] Thirty-[Tatars? . . .] you nobles and people of the Nine-Ogouz...'.

Culture Mongolia "www.culture.mn" - Kul Tegin Monument - Southern Face

What's the 'Otuz' there, for, you think? You believe I added it; I guess it's missing in your copy.

Edited by gok_toruk - 24-Aug-2007 at 14:22
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 10:56
 
You said
 
>>>the nation called Azari lives in Iran, and doesnt have anything to do with us. <<<
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 09:02
Kamran, did I say that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 04:27

baku,

Irani Azerbaijanis are not related at all to you???????

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 04:18
Originally posted by gok_toruk

'Orkhon Inscriptions', page 22:

Bilge Qaqan, when talking to Tatars and Oghuzes:

'Otuz Tatar, Toquz Oghuz Begleri; BUDUNUM; bu sabimin eshyt, qaytgdy Tingla'.

 
You added "Tatar". Exact words went like this:
 
"Otuz...., Tokuz Oguz begleri, budun bu sabmn edgti eid katg tngla."
 
Check your book again please.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 16:58
One of the explanations of the name "Azerbaycan" I have seen was
azer-bay-gan. First of all, "Er" means man in Turkish.  Azer is considered some modification of Khazar.
Bay - "means priveleged person" in Turkish.
gan - one source says this meant high place in old Turkish.  
 
Sorry, I dont have this article in English. If you can read Azeri :
 
Gok Turk, tried to explain the word "Azer"i, for some reason. Before Soviet Union, we never called ourselves Azeri (only Turk) . And in fact we never called ourselves Azeri, during Soviet time as well (only Azerbaijani). So, there is no need to explain this. the nation called Azari lives in Iran, and doesnt have anything to do with us.
 


Edited by Emil_Baku - 23-Aug-2007 at 17:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 16:25
In this connection, Do we know whether Mahmud Kashgari mentions Tatars in his dictionary of Turkic dialects?
 
If he does, it would support a version of their Turkic origins, but he didn't, as I know, write anything about Tatars there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 13:10
'Orkhon Inscriptions', page 22:

Bilge Qaqan, when talking to Tatars and Oghuzes:

'Otuz Tatar, Toquz Oghuz Begleri; BUDUNUM; bu sabimin eshyt, qaytgdy Tingla'.

Here, Tatars and Oghuzes are related nationally/tribally (by the word 'budun', meaning 'nation; tribe') to Bilge Qaqan. Note that, although Mongolian tribes also appeared in inscriptions, nowhere they are described as 'budunum' or stuff. In fact, 'budun' in inscriptions were used to put tribes into categories.

There's another one; but I just need time to go over books to find the exact quote.

The text you provided is for the Kl Tigin's funeral, right? "Quriyakun batsyq daghy, Soghd B.R.CH.K.R Buqaraq ulus budundanyng Sengn Oghul Tarqan kelty'". Is the text you wrote for Kl Tigin's funeral?

We need more research and proof to talk about their language.


Edited by gok_toruk - 23-Aug-2007 at 13:15
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 05:15
Originally posted by gok_toruk

According to Turkic inscriptions (Orkhon - Bilge Qaqan), they were considered as Turkic. Unlike 'Khitays', they were classified among Turkic tribes. '3 Kurikan', '9 Qyrqiz' were also counted in Tatar confederation, in Turkic inscriptions. Tatars inhabited Tugla and Onon long before Mongolian tribes started to settle there. 
 
I couldn't find the Turkic affiliation of Tatars from Turkic inscription. Could you please provide the exact qoute? It would really put an end to the endless discussions.
 
What I can find is only the following, Kol tegin monument, from which we can't determine their Turkicness, except for otuz (which means thirty). 
 
"Mourners and lamenters came. Starting from the East, where the sun rises, came people from the Bokli plain, from Tabgach, Tibet, the Apar, Purum, the Kirkiz, Uch Kurikan, Otuz Tatar, Kitan and Tatbi: from so many peoples did they come and lament and mourn. So famous were these Khagans."
 
Gene Gouset worte that linguistics had no doubt Tatars at the time of Chengiz spoke Mongolic language, I don't know how they based this claim though.  
 
A mongolian member once said "tatar" in Mongolian means "Nomad". So they could be originally Nomadic Mongols, or Mongolified Turks. 
 
 
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