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Chess had its roots in Indus Valley Civlization
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bilal_ali_2000 View Drop Down
Baron
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chess had its roots in Indus Valley Civlization
    Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 21:59

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/Chessmen.jpg

It appears that chess had its origin in the Indus Valley Civilzation. From Lothal terracotta chess pieces have been unearhted which bear a striking resemblance to modern chess pieces as well as a modern chess board.

And on a side note one of the pieces is unmistakably a horse. It seems that the conception that the horse was not known to the indus valley people maybe wrong becasue the presence of a cavalry unit in this does not only mean that the horse was known to the indus valley people but was so commonly used in their armies that it had its own seperate division.
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 01:00
Could be. But in another scenario the Indus valley people were probably wiped out by a a horse riding people against whom they had little defense. One of the invaders could have carried in the chess pieces.
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 01:09
These were excavated at Lothal in 2400 BC much before these so called invasions. And as i have said the presence of the horse piece indicates that the horse was and was very much a part of the Indus Valey Armies.     
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 02:12
If "so-called invasions" didn't destroy the Indus valley civilization the the presence of nearly all the buildings being destroyed by fire and deliberate destruction is a hoax! We can only go by the visible archaeological evidence and what can be seen. If you have any written evidence that nobody else knows of then congratulations you have made a fortune!
elenos
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 03:42
What are you talking about. Everyone who follows the subject knows that there is absolutely zero evidence of any invasion. There is even little evidence of internal conflict which is quite unusual. Evey archeologist working in the field even the oen who say that Aryan Immigration did happen admit that there is no signs of any outside invason. Perhaps you shoudl google around on the net to get up to speed on the topic.           
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 03:48

What are you talking about there is no signs of any destruction in the archealogical record not even of internal conflict which is unusual. Most of the archeologist working on the field even the ones who say that aryan immigration did happen say that there is no archeological evidence of an outside invsion. Perhaps you shoudl google around on the net to get upto speed with the latest on the subject.

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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 04:24

No problems there bilal ali, got on net, went straight to the latest Indian web site and found this;

The twin cities of Harappa and Mohenjadaro, which are the two most famous of the Indian Valley civilization sites, are now in Pakistan; both seem to have been built fully planned, and have identical layouts. Neither changed till near the end of the period. Though there was a long period of gradual decay towards 1750 B.C., the actual end was sudden, and remains unexplained though the evidence suggests that the Indus may have changed its course and floods might have followed. Some cataclysmic event, in any case, appears to have struck Harappa, and the cities and town were emptied of their inhabitants. At Mohenjadaro, the city was burnt and the inhabitants killed, and people who were far less advanced than the inhabitants of the Indus Valley seem to have taken possession of the towns. Thus it is possible to argue that the way was paved for the Aryans by the victory of barbarism over an older and more advanced urban culture.

Dont blame me for this article. I chose an Indian web site for I know all about the love and good will you guys have for each other!

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Posts: 0 		  Quote pikesman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 05:21
Well there may have been m any other causes for the wipeout of the indus valley civilization..Earthquakes or floods may have wiped them out..
 
as for the chess pieces it has alwayz been a source of contention for whether chess was invented in india or persia...
 
these chess pieces may twist the scales in india's favour.. another thing -from all of what has been excavated from mohenjodaro and harappa there has been no evidence that this civilization even had an army leav e alone cavalry!!
There are three ways to an argument..your way,my way and the right way !!
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 06:46
Some say that the Indus people lived on a major river that dried out, like the the Saraswati. I'm saying the chess pieces could have come from other circumstances, depending on viewpoint. They could have made in that area or could have been a trade object. You made a good point pikesman, about their lack of an army. I didn't want to get into right now that out of respect for our friend who holds other views.
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 09:05
Well please give me the link the to that website so that i can put it in context. I hvae done search on the internet with the key words "mohenjodaro" and "burnt" and i have arrived at no website which said that Mohenjodaro was burnt, the only places where they are both mentioned is in conext of baked bricks and one where it says that  it was burnt by a radioactive atomic blast Confused.
And i think that website is misinformed if what you told me is true because the text books all over the world still follow the same frame as envisioned by Max Muller and Marshall about eighty years ago and what they read in these texts they put on their website. Some of these websites still say that the cities of Mohenjodaro and Harappa appeared out of nowhere without any precurssor which is obviously wrong as the precursors for Harappa and Mohenjodaro can be found at least as early as 7000 BC at Mehrgarh. 
Please give me an authentic source not some Western Views Complaint hindu websites or Dravidian websites, who by the way are one of the most passonist pro invasionist school as they have unwittingly been given credit for this great civilization and are not willing to give it up so easily or African Websites or Australian Aboriginal websites as they all want to lay a claim to this civilzation.
And people here say that form what we have gathered we can say that they didn't have any armies is pretty much wrong here a all kinds of weapons heads spear heads, arrow heads and even the tirshul have been found and they also had huge fortifications. The reason that we have not found any signs of large scale destrution of sites is maybe because of the war ethics of the people they didn't destroyed civilian population didn't burnt the fields and ddin't destroy cities something which carried into historical times when the Indian armies were known not to attack after dawn and uptil sunrise a farmer would be ploughing the fields while the armies did battle in the battlefield something which theye used to pay for against foreign invaders who had no such hangups. So just because there have been no signs of cities burnt doesn't mean that they didn't have an army.
An by the way tamils aren't that peaceful as the invasionist schools make them out to be. Some of the earliest Tamil literature is about war and in various neolithic tamil sites various types of stone weapons have been found. In the words of Koenard Elst in the jungle of humanity completely passifist civilizations are nothing but a pipe dream.
So please give me an authentic source, a renowned archeologist who is aware that he is accountable for what he says.
And on another note if you do find some evidence of razing of these cities then you my friend can make a lot of money because the invasionist school is so desperate for any signs of an outside invasion i am sure that you will be well compensated for your troublesSmile.     
 
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 09:48
Originally posted by pikesman

as for the chess pieces it has alwayz been a source of contention for whether chess was invented in india or persia...
 
Well there is no contention in this regard that whether chess was invented in India or Perisa as the learned scholar of cheess knows. Shahtranj means nothing in Persian while its cognate in Sansikrit is Chataraunja meaning "four divisions of the cavalry". The earliest reference to Shatrunj in Persia is about in 500 BC whereas in Sanskirt references to chatarunja exist as early as 500BC.   
And from Persia it speard to the west.
The only other serious contender is China with its variant of chess to which references can be made as early to as 200 B. But still 300 years behind India. And the presence of the elephant unit (fella) in all the chess variants abviously points to India as elephant wer enever used in war atr least on a scale to get their own division.     
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 09:56
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

to Shatrunj in Persia is about in 500 BC
Sorry meant that to be 500 ADEmbarrassed
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

And the presence of the elephant unit (fella)
I meant the Bishop unit which is a localization of the elephant unit
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 09:56
Whoa bilal, one thing at a time! Give us an example of what you mean by a "clean" website in your view and please be honest about what you are looking for. I just looked up "indus valley civilization" on google. You say an Australian Aboriginal website is trying to cut in on the action? I'm not surprised and yet that is impossible anyway. The website I used is ucla, but I admit it does say the info is from a 1966 book. I know if you are a scholar and a gentleman you will not attack this and will be give your impartial evidence of archaeological finds since then.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/Ancient/Indus.html
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 10:37
Well i am not a scholar but i can tell you this one thing for sure and that is all the archeologists are unanimous in the opinion that upto the present there has been no signs of any large scale destructions of any city. The destruction  of cities conclusion was arrived at the first sight of a skeleton at Mohenjodaro by Marshall and is now is thought to be a case of imagination gone wild. All scholars are unanimous in saying that the archeological record shows a series of gradual and uninterupted development from at least 7000BC leading upto the Indus Valley. Of course if a new find does show signs of a city destoryed than i can do nothing about that. However still then a lot of furhter evidenece will still need to be covered to conclude that foreign invaders were a major factor in the decline of IVC.
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 10:45
QUOTE]And the presence of the elephant unit (fella) in all the chess variants abviously points to India as elephant wer enever used in war atr least on a scale to get their own division.[/QUOTE] 
And the fact that the modern chess pieces look like the on unearthed at lothal rather than the traditional china chess pieces which are discs. China chess as i refer to is called elephant game in china hinting its Indian origin as Elephants were used in War in India but not China.  
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 10:47
four divisions of the cavalry
Meant that to be army rather than cavalry
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 10:56
went straight to the latest Indian web site
Why did you say that it was an Indian website it was an American website because only an American website can be that ignorant about the archeology of South Asia.    
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Tiggs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 15:33
There was no invasion. River Saraswati, which was a huge river at one point dried up (possible cause earthquakes etc caused its tributaries like Yamuna to change direction). As a result population moved away. Most moved east..some moved west. As a result you had flow of genes in both direction..along with linguistic similarities. Saraswati was like Nile, and that is why it was given so much importance in old texts. It was supposed to be mightier than Ganges. You can still see its path on Google Earth.
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 19:42
Bilal, you may not be a scholar but you are not a gentleman either if you ask another to produce their evidence and then use it to continue your racially based attacks on western nations. If that is all you are interested in doing then you are being childish. You have no other evidence do you? 
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Posts: 409 		  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2007 at 08:01
Originally posted by elenos

Bilal, you may not be a scholar but you are not a gentleman either if you ask another to produce their evidence and then use it to continue your racially based attacks on western nations. If that is all you are interested in doing then you are being childish. You have no other evidence do you? 
I didn't say that i was a gentleman (not that i am not Big%20smile).
As for your saying that i asked for evidence and then got some and then used it to attack the western nations, well i would  request you to please read the history of the Aryan controversy and then you will realise that some of those attacks can be said to be well deserved especially from the people who got the short end of the stick. Every one knows about the Nazis and Hitler but that was just the tip of the ice berg for what non sense was circulating among Most of Europe so called Historians pre world war II. They commited mass genocide of people orginally from my area (Punjab) the Romani Gypsies who may very well turn out to be the real pure Aryans (Rig Veda was unmistakably composed in Punjab).
As for me critcizing his evidence well even before looking at the site i told him that that information may have been out of date and he admitted that yes it was (it was from a 1965 text book). I think i specified my criteria for authentic information pretty clearly that "it should be from a scholar working in the field  who is aware that he is accountable for what he says." I don't consider that i was childish or baseless in my criticism as i was pretty clear that why i questioned the evidence that which he presnted me and then clearly stated that what source i consider to be authentic. 
And he told me that the information was from a Hindu wesbite which it was not because it was from an American unversity website UCLA.
       
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