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calvo
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Topic: Muslims in the Balkans Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 13:41 |
I was surprised to see on TV the other day that more than 10% of the Bulgarian population are Muslim. It also said that Muslims form a percentage of the Rumanian and Macedonian population as well.
Are most of Bulgarian and Rumanian Muslims, like Bosniaks, Slavic converts to the Islamic faith? Or are they descendants are Turkish colonists?
Are they in general totally integrated into the majority population?
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konstantinius
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Posted: 05-Aug-2007 at 18:54 |
I'm not an expert on this but my hunch is that Balkan Muslims today are a mix of: a) Roma (are ALL Roma Muslim?) b) descendants of Turkish settlers since Ottoman times c) local populations (i.e. Albanians, Bosnians) who converted to Islam while not being ethnically Turkish
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Ovidius
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Posted: 06-Aug-2007 at 15:57 |
yes, 0.3% of the Romanian Population is Muslim! How significant!
Of the Romanians that are Muslims, most are descendents of migrants - Turks, Tartars and more recent migrants. Eastern Romania (the coastal Areas) were controlled by Tartars and there were plenty of Ottoman Turks also in the region. So Islam has a fairly long History in Romania.
Nearly all are descendents of Muslims from elsewhere - not always Turks. As for Integration, who knows really, its not really that well known. There are quite a few Mosques 70/80 or so I believe. There is also, as with most nations, Religious tolerance since the fall of Communism. As far as I'm aware, some of the ethnic groups - the Muslim Roma and Gagauzes live a non Romania lifestyle and are in some ways alienated.
As for Bulgaria, as far as I'm aware its a fairly similar picture. Except that Most the Gypsies in Bulgaria are Muslims and there are a vast amount of Turks in Bulgaria
Edited by Ovidius - 06-Aug-2007 at 15:58
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Ovidius
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Posted: 06-Aug-2007 at 15:57 |
oh and Roma are a mix of Religions across the regions in which they populate.
Edited by Ovidius - 06-Aug-2007 at 15:58
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konstantinius
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 16:54 |
Originally posted by Ovidius
yes, 0.3% of the Romanian Population is Muslim! How significant!
Of the Romanians that are Muslims, most are descendents of migrants - Turks, Tartars and more recent migrants. Eastern Romania (the coastal Areas) were controlled by Tartars and there were plenty of Ottoman Turks also in the region. So Islam has a fairly long History in Romania.
Nearly all are descendents of Muslims from elsewhere - not always Turks. As for Integration, who knows really, its not really that well known. There are quite a few Mosques 70/80 or so I believe. There is also, as with most nations, Religious tolerance since the fall of Communism. As far as I'm aware, some of the ethnic groups - the Muslim Roma and Gagauzes live a non Romania lifestyle and are in some ways alienated.
As for Bulgaria, as far as I'm aware its a fairly similar picture. Except that Most the Gypsies in Bulgaria are Muslims and there are a vast amount of Turks in Bulgaria
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"Vast amounts of Turks in Bulgaria"? According to the 2001 census Bulgarian Muslims amount to 12.2% of the population. Now, since all Bulgarian Muslims are not Turks the Turkish minority is probably less than the afore-mentioned 12.2%. Exactly how much I don't know, but certainly it is not "vast".
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Ovidius
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:09 |
Bulgaria's Population is 7.6million and there are 780k Bulgarians - 10% of the Population. I'd call that a Vast amount.
I'd say there were a vast amount of Welsh people in Britain, yet they make up less than 10% of our population.
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Guests
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:20 |
I think that there are numerous Turks in Bulgaria, and compromise a big chunk of Bulgaria's muslim population, I do know one Bulgarian Turkish muslim, and one Bulgarian muslim, aside from a lot of Bulgarian orthodx. There are a lot of muslims in the Balkans, of various ethnicitiies, and backgrounds. The slavic as a conglomerate are probably most vast, however, to lump up all "slavic" speaking as a single nationality, or ethnic block though, there are vast differences between them, nationality, and ethnic wise as well. as there is between other language speakers of the Balkans.
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Perun
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 07:05 |
Muslims in Balkans are of different origins. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia most of them are Slavic languages speaking. Because of the last bloody events ( Balkan wars of the XX century) majority of them now think of themselves as Bosniaks (trying to get connected with sole Balkanian Slavic speaking country with Muslim majority). Albanians in Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia are mostly Muslims, even there are huge groups of Orthodox and Catholic Albanians. There are also significant groups of Turks in Macedonia, Bulgaria and Romania. Among them live remnants of Tatars and Slavic people that were converted to Islam.
Roma people in Balkans are not all Muslim. They kind of chose religion that was major in the country they are living. So, in Bosnia there are Roma Muslims, but also Orthodox Roma and Catholic Roma...
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 07:49 |
Are there any Hindu Roma?
Seeing as they migrated from India.
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calvo
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 10:34 |
Originally posted by Perun
Muslims in Balkans are of different origins. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia most of them are Slavic languages speaking. Because of the last bloody events ( Balkan wars of the XX century) majority of them now think of themselves as Bosniaks (trying to get connected with sole Balkanian Slavic speaking country with Muslim majority). Albanians in Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia are mostly Muslims, even there are huge groups of Orthodox and Catholic Albanians. There are also significant groups of Turks in Macedonia, Bulgaria and Romania. Among them live remnants of Tatars and Slavic people that were converted to Islam.
Roma people in Balkans are not all Muslim. They kind of chose religion that was major in the country they are living. So, in Bosnia there are Roma Muslims, but also Orthodox Roma and Catholic Roma... |
Very interesting info!!
I guess that there's also a high degree of diversity among the Muslims themselves: some being totally European in customs, others being more Middle-Eastern. I've had many Bosniak and Serb friends and I haven't observed any differences in customs, values, and lifestyle between the 2.
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 14:32 |
Muslim proselytism has been especially successful in the "border area" between Orthodox and Catholic Christianity (more specifically the area between Albania and Bosnia) where neither of those churches was well established - that's why most of the Muslims there are converted Slavic, Albanian or Roma populations. In the rest of the Balkans Muslims are usually descendants of various peoples (Turks, Tartars etc) that settled in the region during the Ottoman times.
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Perun
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 14:46 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Are there any Hindu Roma?
Seeing as they migrated from India.
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As far as I know, many of Balkanian Roma people have many Hindu customs, and often even include Krisna in their prayers. They usually make some kind of mixture of Hindu and Muslim/Christian beliefs.
Most of them are aware of their Hindu origin (even they sometimes connected themself to Egyptians ). Their language in Balkans is a mixture of Hindu, Slavic and many other influences.
They are indeed very interesting people. However, the biggest problem in Balkans is some kind of racism against Roma among "aboriginal" groups.
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Perun
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 14:57 |
Originally posted by calvo
Very interesting info!!
I guess that there's also a high degree of diversity among the Muslims themselves: some being totally European in customs, others being more Middle-Eastern. I've had many Bosniak and Serb friends and I haven't observed any differences in customs, values, and lifestyle between the 2. |
In fact, there are not much differences in customs among Slavic Muslims. There are just some regional differences. It is the same with all ex-Yugoslav nations. We have the same origin, share the same history, culture and language. These todays differences are more political and artificial. Mentality is the same, so you cannot in some group of people guess who is Serb, Bosnian or Croatian. Only dialects are different (but is also a regional difference, Croats from Dalmatia and Slavonia have different dialects, Serbs from Sumadia or Vojvodina, Bosnians from Krajina or Podrinje).
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calvo
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 16:05 |
Originally posted by Perun
In fact, there are not much differences in customs among Slavic Muslims. There are just some regional differences. It is the same with all ex-Yugoslav nations. We have the same origin, share the same history, culture and language. These todays differences are more political and artificial. Mentality is the same, so you cannot in some group of people guess who is Serb, Bosnian or Croatian. Only dialects are different (but is also a regional difference, Croats from Dalmatia and Slavonia have different dialects, Serbs from Sumadia or Vojvodina, Bosnians from Krajina or Podrinje). |
The ethnic cleansing of Bosnia was basically ridiculous and nothing but a mass hysteria.
From all that I learned, the Serbs and Muslims had no integration problems at all, all that sparked the conflict was historical vengeance propogated by sensationalist, populist, polititians.
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Perun
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 20:38 |
Originally posted by calvo
The ethnic cleansing of Bosnia was basically ridiculous and nothing but a mass hysteria.
From all that I learned, the Serbs and Muslims had no integration problems at all, all that sparked the conflict was historical vengeance propogated by sensationalist, populist, polititians. |
Exactly, it was a combination of nationalism that was burried somewhere deep during communist times, outer influence (foreign factors that inflicted the fall of Yugoslavia) and myth based histroical vengeance. definitely ridiculous...
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konstantinius
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Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 20:30 |
It was also the monetary policies of the IMF (Yugoslavia joined in1991, I think?) which required cuts in the expenditures and strict fiscal austerity. As a result, federal money ran out and the different ethnicities started to squabble over their shrinking share of the pie.
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Perun
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Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 14:04 |
Definitely, money was a huge problem. Government tried to save local currency from total colapse. Federal organization of Yugoslavia allowed some of republic authorities to behave as independent. But, I think this is a bit off-topic :)
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Menumorut
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Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 14:51 |
Are most of Bulgarian and Rumanian Muslims, like Bosniaks, Slavic converts to the Islamic faith? Or are they descendants are Turkish colonists? |
In Romania there are very few Romanians converted to Islam and all are from recent years. Most of the Muslims in Romania are Turks and Tatars established in Dobrudja and Galati county since 13th century. Hundreds or thousands of them (officialy there are ~70.000 Muslims) of them passed to Neoprotestantism, Pentecostalism, in recent years.
Are there any Hindu Roma?
Seeing as they migrated from India |
The Roma are originary from India but they intermixed so today geneticians says that only half of their blood is Indian. They have kept nothing from their Indian traditions, except language (I think in Romania only 20% of Roma still speak the nativ language) but they adopted recently elements inspired from Indian architecture for the building of their homes, in a style considered by architects to be very kitch, like you can see in this photo from village Buzescu, South of Bucharest:
As religion, Roma people are considered to be Christian even much of them is not Baptized. There are not any other religion among them.
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xristar
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Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 12:13 |
Roma in Greece speak either their language or (very often) turkish.
It was not nationalism that divided Bosnians into muslims and christians. Nationalism assumes people speaking the same same language and having the same customs forming a nation, and separating from the others. Thats was not the case in Bosnia.
Religious fanaticism (characteristic of uneducated people) and foreign pressures (western europeans and americans -always) led to the civil war in Bosnia Herzegovina.
**Offensive wording removed from post**
Edited by Seko - 22-Aug-2007 at 15:54
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Perun
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Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 13:28 |
In Balkans nationalism and religious fanatism always come together. Nations in Bosnia were created upon belonging to particular religion. Thus, all the Orthodox in Bosnia see themselves as Serbs, all Catholics are Croats, while Muslims took the name Bosniaks identifiying with Bosnia (becazse they don't have their own motherland but Bosnia). This was the product of Austro-Hungarian politics; a real divide et impera tactics. Unfortunately, later on this was used by politicians from three "national" groups. That all lead us to 1992.-1995. War (which was not only a civil one, but an intervention from Serbian and Croatian forces, together with paramilitary troups and mercenaries).
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