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The hepthalites & huns

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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The hepthalites & huns
    Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 16:00
YES,  It's interesting and informative!

In the map, you indicate that "Rouran or Avars (Xioung Nu)"...  Can you clarify if you meant Avars = Xioung Nu   or you do not mean that, actually.

I just thought Avars is not = Xioung nu, though there could be some relation.
Thanks!
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 17:26
This map is simply incorrect. First of all nor Rouran, not Avars are Xiongnu, there are centuries between them.
 
Secondly, there is only a hypo that a part of Rouran became Avars, it's not complitely proved anyway.
 
Thirdly, it were Turks who destroyed the Rouran confederation, by the time Turks reached Oxus region Rouran already didn't have their independent confereration and faded from the history map.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 04:52
Originally posted by Sarmat12

This map is simply incorrect. First of all nor Rouran, not Avars are Xiongnu, there are centuries between them.
 
Secondly, there is only a hypo that a part of Rouran became Avars, it's not complitely proved anyway.
 
Thirdly, it were Turks who destroyed the Rouran confederation, by the time Turks reached Oxus region Rouran already didn't have their independent confereration and faded from the history map.
 
Sarmat,
 
The map presented here shows the situations in which hepthalites along with Rourans entered Indian subcontinent.  We are not emphasizing over the Rourans and Xioungnu here. It is generally believed (might not be 100% true) that Rouran who were a part (or vassals) of Xiongnu Khanate were later known as Avars when they were defeated by Turkic group called Gokturks in around 550 AD.
 
It is also true that the Turkish group "Gokturks" and Rourans were somehow associated with the XiongNu like Huns. The exact relationship is uncertain but thats a different arguement and not needed to acertain the hepthlites connection with the neighbouring tribes.
 
Hope its clear now.
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 06:06
Originally posted by ashokharsana

 
The map presented here shows the situations in which hepthalites along with Rourans entered Indian subcontinent.  We are not emphasizing over the Rourans and Xioungnu here. It is generally believed (might not be 100% true) that Rouran who were a part (or vassals) of Xiongnu Khanate were later known as Avars when they were defeated by Turkic group called Gokturks in around 550 AD.
 
Dear ashokharsana,
 
 I'm sorry, but this map is nonsense. Xiongnu state was defeated by Chinese and Xianbei (Xianbi) in 2 century AD. Then they disappeared from the region.
 
Rourans lived in 5-6 century (there is 300 years gap between them and Xiongnu). Moreoever, unlike Xiongnu who were Turkic Rouran spoke proto-Mongolian language.
 
Originally posted by ashokharsana

It is also true that the Turkish group "Gokturks" and Rourans were somehow associated with the XiongNu like Huns. The exact relationship is uncertain but thats a different arguement and not needed to acertain the hepthlites connection with the neighbouring tribes.
 
 
Rouran had more connectionto to Xianbi, who were also proto-Mongolian speakers rather then with Xiongnu.
 
What makes this map particular incorrect is that when the Turks got to Sogdiana, Rouran already had lost their Kaganate and didn't control any territories which could be drawn on the map.
 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 06:09
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

There's no doubt that some Rourans went to India during the period of Hephthalite rule.  In fact, one of the Rouran rulers fled to the Hephthalites after a defeat in the mid-500's.  There is a group in India to this day with a name very similar to Rouran that claims descent from them.  I'm sure Ashok could provide the details.
 
Apart from the Rors or Rours there is another caste in India which follow the same tradition followed by Rours, this community namely 'Arora' claims to rule the same area which was ruled by hepthalites and they also claim that they are "khsatriyas".
 
Their Hometown Arour is situated in Sindh. Another nearby city is known as Rouri or Rohri. 
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 07:15
Thanks for the info, Ashok.  Here's a map that's supposed to show the Rouran migration route, but since I can't read Chinese I'm not 100% sure.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 07:35

No, the arrows on the map show the migration of Hephtalite 厌哒 (Yanda) in Chinese.

Rouran territory is marked with the big Characters 柔然 (Rouran) right to the south east from lake Balkhash.

 



Edited by Sarmat12 - 03-Nov-2007 at 07:39
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 07:36
Hi ! TheMysticNomad,

I can tell from the map there are two arrows showing the routings:

1. about the invasion of White Huns (in the left hand side)
2. about the Chinese famous Buddhist monk XuanZang who travelled fm Chang An to India.

This is the map showing Rouran and  White Hun (Yida) territory in AD500.
But not related to any migration route of Rouran.


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  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 08:35
If you mean Rourans as Juan-Juans, then yes, they are Avars, Avars are not Xiong-nu, theny might have some xiong-nu tribesmen in their ranks, of course, since they're mixed, but xiong-nu is mostly turnet do be Gok-Turk, rather than Avar. 
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 11:54
Originally posted by Xianpei

Hi ! TheMysticNomad,

I can tell from the map there are two arrows showing the routings:

1. about the invasion of White Huns (in the left hand side)
2. about the Chinese famous Buddhist monk XuanZang who travelled fm Chang An to India.

This is the map showing Rouran and  White Hun (Yida) territory in AD500.
But not related to any migration route of Rouran.


 
Thanks for clearing that up!  I was really intrigued by this map which I found in the Wiki article for Rourans, so it's great to have someone translate it.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 13:24
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Rouran had more connectionto to Xianbi, who were also proto-Mongolian speakers rather then with Xiongnu.
 
Hope this will clear all confusions:
 
The founder of Rouran dynasty was serving under a king of Touba tribe (One of the xianbei confederatoins), and hence rourans spoke the proto-mogolian language. Later he claimed independence and founded his own cofederations by collecting all nomad hordes scattered around china. His descendent defeated the Xianbeis.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Xiongnu state was defeated by Chinese and Xianbei (Xianbi) in 2 century AD. Then they disappeared from the region.
  
 
Yeah The Xioungnu disapeared in around 200 AD but they came back as Gokturks, isnt it ?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

unlike Xiongnu who were Turkic Rouran spoke proto-Mongolian language.
  
 
I told the reason already.
But Even if the Rourans were different from XiongNus, There was certainly some kind of relationship between them. It is possible that the remnents of Xiongnu joined the Rourans aganist the Xianbei (quite a strong possibility) but later they divided on some issues and left the Rourans as GokTurks.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

What makes this map particular incorrect is that when the Turks got to Sogdiana, Rouran already had lost their Kaganate and didn't control any territories which could be drawn on the map.
 
Not right because the last Rouran group was finished by Gokturks in around 555 AD when they killed many Rourans and their dynasty came to an end (If they were not converted into Avars).
Till this time (specially between 450 to 510 AD) Rourans and hepthelites proved strong enough to hurl back the Joint armies of Gokturks and Sassanians. (Said In the context of hepthallite invasion to india.)
 
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Edited by ashokharsana - 03-Nov-2007 at 13:38
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 13:37

I wish if someone could exactly translate the map given here by MisticNomad.. It will be a great help.

 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 13:49
Originally posted by Kerimoglu

If you mean Rourans as Juan-Juans, then yes, they are Avars, Avars are not Xiong-nu, theny might have some xiong-nu tribesmen in their ranks, of course, since they're mixed, 
 
Rouran or Ruru or Ruan Ruan or Juan Juan were one and the same group. Are you sure Juan Juan were Avars ?
 
 
but xiong-nu is mostly turnet do be Gok-Turk, rather than Avar. 
 
Yeah its very much a possibility.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 02:19
Originally posted by ashokharsana

I wish if someone could exactly translate the map given here by MisticNomad.. It will be a great help.

 
Regards
 
What exactly interests you. The map gives the names of geographical points e.g. rivers, cities etc.
 
The two arrows which show the directions of Hephtalite invsions and thus are significant for the topic are translated as follows.
 
The arrow on the left (western) side of the map: "The invasion of Hephtalite to Persia"
 
The inscription by the arrow which points down (to the South) says The route (line) of the Hephtalite invasion to India
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 04:02
Thank Sarmat,
 
There are other arrows on the map as well.
 
What does the three arrows approaching westwards mean?
 


Edited by ashokharsana - 04-Nov-2007 at 04:08
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 05:18

As Xianpei already noted, the inscription under those is translated as "the route of piligrimage of Xuanzang."

Xuanzang was a famous Chinese Buddhist monk who performed 17 years long trip to India in 7 century AD, during which he visited many Buddhist holy places and collected a large number of Buddhist religious books.

He is one of the famous figures of Chinese Buddhist history, many of the original Indian Buddhist sutras were recovered via the Chinese translations performed by Xuanzang.

His book about his journey to the West had become an important source on the history of China, India and Central Asia.

He was also immortalized in the classical Chinese fantazy like novel "Jorney to the West"

 



Edited by Sarmat12 - 04-Nov-2007 at 05:34
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 14:11
Yes,  Smarmat12,  you are exactly correct.  
You are well versed in Chinese language!   Great!
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 16:45
Thank you Smile
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  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 20:35
Yeah, I am sure, since Gumilyov writes about it:

Juan Juans were mixed tribas of mixed steppemen. Whoever deciden do run away from his home he went and joined Juan Juans. They were ethnically very mixed, however those people were all sharing stepp traditions and following stepp rules. After when Gokturks rose they attacked and destroyed the army of Juan Juans. The rest run to the south of Caspian. there, they met Persians and moved to northern Black Sea through Caucasus. After several years they founded a kingdom called Avar, which lived its highest times during the reign of Bayan Khan.

Anyways, thats what Gumilyov wrote, but I made it shoter though
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 20:48
I'm afraid Gumilev didn't write that Rouran became Avars. He believed that that theory was incorrect. Moreover, he thought that the Avars who invaded Europe where not Turkic or Mongolian but Iranic speakers, decendants of Hionites.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 04-Nov-2007 at 21:19
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