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The hepthalites & huns

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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The hepthalites & huns
    Posted: 06-Nov-2007 at 06:03
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I'm afraid Gumilev didn't write that Rouran became Avars. He believed that that theory was incorrect. Moreover, he thought that the Avars who invaded Europe where not Turkic or Mongolian but Iranic speakers, decendants of Hionites.
 
 
Language is a strong base to ascertain the origin of any race , but in the case of mixed people (as is the case here) you can not rely solely on the language they spoke. Language is a thing which is hardly carried by any group migrating to other place.
 
Today also we can see that a russian or german will speak russian or german res. regardless of his race or origin.
 
(Though my own caste people "gujjars" are an exception to this very rule. They speak almost similar language regradless of their settlements. That means Gujjars of Pak, Afghan, kasmir and india speak one and the same language called "Gujjari".)
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2007 at 18:32
The thing is that we do not know for sure what language Avars spoke, just hypos.
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2007 at 21:11

Afghans? Hephthalite!

 

 

      The paucity of record in Huns provides us fragmentary picture of their civilization and empire. Their background is uncertain. Its not known where did the word Hun, and its not known if its a race ethnic or a name. It could of derived from Indo-European word for Hunus, (Sanskriti for hundreds) Hundas, (Iranic word for Measurement) Hundred, (English word for 100). One thing is for sure the Huns were a confederation of central Asian tribes of diverse origin who appeared in different parts of Eurasia with their own kingdome and they were never counted as one group. Its not clear if the Huns ever called themselves Huns. It was until the end of 4th century that Europeans experienced beginning with Attila who reigned Europe from 455-453 AD, who could be one of Hephthalite descends who united other tribes along with him going towards west. Many nations have tried to assert themselves as ethnic or cultural successors to the Huns, but as for Afghans they never asserted and nor they ever argued themselves to be Huns. The facts that were gathered by Persians, Indians, Chinese, Balkens, Europeans, and Central Asian, we have come to know that Afghans played a big game in their Pre-Islamic times more then ever.

 

 

The root to European Huns could more or less be the Hephthalites, Ephthalites, abadhdalites, Abadhalite, Abadali has all the same meaning, it was the name given by Byzantine historians, they are also known as the White Huns. According Russian scholar Yu V. Gankovsky, from his book A History of Afghanistan: My opinion is that the formation of the union of largely East-Iranian tribes which became the initial ethnic stratum of the Pashtun ethnogenesis dates from the middle of the first millennium AD and is connected with the dissolution of the Epthalite (White Huns) confederacy. In the areas north of the Hindu Kush some of the tribes of this confederacy participated in the formation of the nationalities who inhabit Middle Asia. Ephthalites were Eastern Iranian people from tribe of Ephthlie (Or Abadhali), living in present-day Afghanistan speaking Eastern Iranian language (Bactrian, Scythian, Avestaian or Pashtu/Afghan). Ephthalites are one of the other biggest tribe of Afghanistan known as Abadhali.

 

The Hephthalites history goes back during conflicts with Kushan rule and Hephathalites being supporters of Sassanian, (220 AD). It was around end of Kushani rule (250 AD) that first conflicts were made with Sassanians who already captured western parts of Kushani Empire. From 300 390 the Ephthalite tribe changed hands with Kushanshahis, Kidarites, Sassanians or Kushans. They remained calm until 400 AD. From 400 AD-440 AD Hephthalite tribe took control of Eastern Iran from Kidarites driving them to Peshawar near the Indian border where the Kidarites would recover (455-470 AD) and this time attacked Gupta Empire at the death of Gupta emperor taking control of northern India for 30 years (470-500AD).

 

From 450-480 AD the Hephthalites further took Sogdian (Samarkand), and Bokhara to the north. The Hephthalites moved closer and closer toward Persian territory, in 484 the Hephthalite chief Akhshunwar led his army attacked the Sassanian King Peroz (459-484) and the king was defeated and killed in Khurasan having captured Tehran to the west. The Hephthalites, at the time, became the superpower of the Middle Asia. They did not only destroyed part of Sassanian Empire in Iran but also intervened in their dynastic struggles when the Sassanid royal, Kavad (488-496), was fighting for the throne with Balash, brother of Peroz. Kavad married the niece of the Hephthalites chief and the Hephthalites aided him to regain his crown in 498. The Hephthalites chose Badakshan as their summer residence. Their chiefs lived north of the Hindu Kush, migrating seasonally from Bactria where they spent the winter.

 

With the stabilization at the western and northern border, the Hephthalites extended their influence to the North-East inoto the Tarim Basin and border of China. From 493 to 556 A.D., they invaded Khotan, Kashgar, Kocho, and Karashahr. The relationship with Juan-juan and China were tightened. The Chinese record indicated that between 507 and 531, the Hephthalites sent thirteen embassies to Northern Wei (439-534) by the king named Ye-dai-yi-li-tuo.

 

From 570-500 Kidarites remained to control northern India,  Hephthalites had little worry about Eastern border it was then that Hephthalites had to face the strong Gupta Empire of India who recaptured power from Kidarites. From 505-520 AD Ephthalites joined hands with Kidarites and invaded India, they are also known as Indo-Hephthalites, or Alchons. The Indo-Hephthalites remained control of Northern India until 600 AD.

 

Between 557 to 561 Persian King Chosroes allied with A Turkic tribe from central Asia or Turkistan region. Chorsoes wanted to profit from the situation to take revenge over the defeat of his grandfather Peroz; he married a daughter of the nomadic chief and allied himself with them against the Hephthalite tribe. The chief Sinjibu was the strongest Turkic tribes and he had the largest number of troops. Attacked on the two sides, from the north by Turks and from the west by Sassanians the Hephthalite Empire were completely broken and surrendered, by 565 only the small Indo-Hephthalite Independent Kingdome survived in Northern India. Some surviving groups to the Oxus did not surrendered and escaped Chosroes' grasp fled to the west and may have been the ancestors of the later Avars in the Danube region. Another era was opening in Central Asia. For the allies of Chosroes were Turks, a new power was to dominate the central Asia for next few centuries.

 

Life Style:

Very little was known about these Hephthalite tribe. Little art has left from them. According to Sung Yun and Hui Sheng who visited their Hephthalite chief at his summer residence in Badakshan and later in Gandhara,"The Hephthalites have no cities, but roam freely and live in tents. They do not live in towns; their seat of government is a moving camp. They move in search of water and pasture, journeying in summer to cool places and in winter to warmer ones....They have no belief in the Buddhist law and they serve a great number of divinities." Other than the deformation of skulls, the other interesting feature of the Hephthalites is their male dominant society, polyandrous society. The records of brothers marrying to one wife had been reported from Chinese source.

The records of brothers marrying to one wife or polyandrous has been understood wrong by westerners. Women had almost no rule in Hephthalites time and nor did it ever did in history of Afghanistan. Polyandry from Greek word poly means many, and andros means man. Which can be looked at two ways, a female forming a stable sexual union with more than one male (which is a bizarre and strange way of living), or a woman with many past husbands. To say that Polyandry existed among Hephthalites where many brothers altogether married with one woman which means women enjoying greater freedom to choose and divorce is next to impossible in Hephthalites time when we know the fact that Ephthalites were male dominant society.

The type of Polyandry that was practiced by Ephthalites is type of fraternal polyandry where two brothers shared one wife, and that only happened when the first brother is either killed or disappeared. This tradition is only practiced by Afghans, where a women loses her husband, in Afghan tradition, the Sister in-law has the right to choose any of her brother-in-laws as her new husband, (After) her first husband past away and if the husband doesnt have a brother, cousins (From fathers side) are the target. In recent years it has been the case with many Afghan women who lost their husbands during soviet and civil wars.

The Language:

The Hephthalites spoked Eastern Iranian language, there is debate however it could be Takhari/Tokhari or Pashtu. According to Japanese researcher Kazuo Enokis research On the Nationality of the Ephthalites: Enoki notes that Procopius' comments on their appearance while not decisive, are in favor of an Iranian theory. Similarly, the seventh century travels of Hsuan Chwang show that he found no physical difference between the descendants of the Ephthalites and their known Iranian neighbours. As for their language, commentators made clear that it was neither Turkish nor Mongol, which also seems to support an Eastern Iranian origin. At the same time there is numismatic and epigraphic evidence to show that a debased form of the old Italic alphabet was used by the Hephthalites. Since the Kushan had close economic ties with Rome they also used old Italic when conquested by Hephthalites, it is possible they retained many aspects of Kushan culture, including the adoption of the Old Italic alphabet.

 

The Religion:

It is equally inconsistent while comparing the references to the Hephthalites' religion. Although Sung Yun and Hui Sheng reported that the Hephthalites did not believe in Buddhism, though there is ample archaeological evidence that this religion was practiced in territories under Hephthalite control. According to Liang shu the Hephthalites worshiped Heaven and also fire - a clear reference to Zoroastrianism.

 



Edited by Nick - 09-Nov-2007 at 21:17
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2007 at 21:54
Nick we do have a certain expectation from members when posting articles. One is that you provide a link and two that you add your own commentary. Since your post is interesting I will be patient and allow you to add the two suggested items or your post may be deleted. 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 04:42
Originally posted by Seko

Nick we do have a certain expectation from members when posting articles. One is that you provide a link and two that you add your own commentary. Since your post is interesting I will be patient and allow you to add the two suggested items or your post may be deleted. 
 
Yeah Mod
 
The post is amazing and can be very factual if Nick could add the source of his info. I am dying to see his next post.
 
 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 05:11
But a few confusions are there as well.
 
See what my knowledge says:
 
Hepthals were a subgroup of yuezhis like the Kushans.
 
They, along with many subgroups of yuezhi tribe, were ruling under Kushans. Their spoken and written Language (Tokhari) also goes with this very fact. Their culture and physical atributes were also very similar to that of Kushans.
 
After 350 AD they started raising their heads as kidarites (In my opinion Kidarites, hepthalites, Kushanshahs, Chionites and Red huns were same). They defeated Kushans and became a trouble for sassanians a well.
 
Hepthalites was again a subgroup of these Red Huns which rose to power under Ahsunwar in around 400 AD. They became powerful and started troubling the persians again. They got help from Rourans or Juan Juans. Joint forces of these two became a trouble for sassanians (Persians). They invited the Gokturks (The Turkic group which Nick was talking about) to their territory and pushed back the Hepthals again till Indian Boundaries. later in 555 AD Rourans and hepthals were erased from the scenerio by the joint forces of Sassanians and GokTurks.
 
(This info limits to the Afghan area only)
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 20:01
If you look more into it..after they were dispersed by the Joint Sassanian Turk advance, the Hephtalites occupied Tokharistan (Afghanistan), this was mentioned by Arab Historians, and then you hear of a tribe of TUrks called "Khalaj" who also occupied this territory, and then we hear of a mysterious people who historians called "Turko-Tajik"...the Ghorids.  They were Pagans and lived in Ghor, which was also part of the Ephtalite empire.  They were Pagans, some were Hindus, they were semi nomadic, they bred the same giant nomad dogs.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 03:56

If it is going this way then let me tell you a very very interesting tradition thats famous in north India;

Read here:

The famous Mohd Ghori was called brother to Prithviraj Chauhan with whom he faught twice once in 1191 and again in 1192. It is said that Prithvi and Ghori were cousins and thats why prithvi did not kill Ghori in 1191 when he defeated him.

Does that mean both of these dynasties (Chauhans and Ghurids) remembered their link to the hepthalites ??

A few years back archeaologists found some coins in Haryana ( near Punjab in north India). On one side of the coins was written the name of Shahabuddin Ghori and on the other side PrithviRaj is shown with his name.

I am sure that the chauhans along with Pratihars and Tomars were from the hapthalite stock but can anyone tell exactly about the origin of Ghurid Dynasty ?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 12:32
BTW Does any one know that there is a small town in Badakhshan province in North eastern Afghanistan called Yaftal. Some from this place call themsleves Yaftatlis descendent of Hephthalites. They speak Persian(Dari) of Badakhshan dialect.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 17:49

I have met some Afghans with the last name Yaftal, but also Abdali, and they were Sunnis and Shiites.  I think this is a testament, that if these happen to be a relation to the Ephtalites, they were a well dispersed tribe.  The Khalaj Turkics have been noted by Historians to also be directly related to the Ephtalites.

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 21:48
When Yanda (Eftalit, Whote hun) were active in Central Asia including Tarim Basin, the main influential powers were Rourou (Rouruan), Gaoche(Tura), Tuoba Xianpei (Wei) and  later Xiongnu. These groups were differenciated from each other in the historical records.
 
Weishu, 91:
 
蠕蠕,东胡之苗裔也,姓郁久闾氏。
 
Tran: Rourou, decendants of Donghu(Tongus), family name was Yujiulu.
 
社仑远遁漠北,侵高车,深入其地,遂并诸部,凶势益振
 
Tran: Shelun marched far to the north of desert, invaded Gaoche (Tiele, Tura), went deep into their land, chased and annexed many tribes, became very powerful.
 
其西北有匈奴余种,国尤富强,部帅曰拔也稽,举兵击社仑,社仑逆战于頞根河,大
破之,后尽为社仑所并。
 
Tran: Its northwest there were Xiongnu rest tribes, very rich and powerful, tribal leader was Bayeji. Attacked Shelun, Shelun counterattacked at river Egen, defeated them, and they were all annexed by Shelun.
 
高车,盖古赤狄之余种也,初号为狄历,北方以为敕勒,诸夏以为高车、丁零。
其语略与匈奴同而时有小异,或云其先匈奴之甥也。
 
Trans: Gaoche, all the remnant tribes of old Chidi (red Di), original title were Dili, in the north Known as Chile,  in all Xia kingdoms known as Gaoche, Dinling. It's language is same as Xiongnu, with little difference, or is called the nephews of Xiongnu.
 
There were accounts of zigzag wars between Yanda (Eftalit), Rourou, and Gaoche.  Yanda also annexed many Gaoche tribes. That might be the reason that during Sui period, there was Yetai which is related to the Eftalit named as one of the Tiele (Tura) tribes.
 
Rouruan Originally Tonggus, but when became powerful annexed later Xiongnu, and Gaoche, and became Xiongnu in nature (as was mentioned in the document as such).
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2008 at 22:28
 KHILJI/KHALJI/GHILJI/GHALJI/GHILZAI.
   Many discussions have been held on this tribe of afghans but we want history not story.
 The history of khiljis is very ancient in afghanistan and their relation goes to iranis as they say they are the sons of shah hussain ghori who belonged to sasani family of shahsabani of iran who were the royal family.According to the Mufahitul ulumi al khwarzmi which was written in 975 AD   HAYATILA IS A TRIBE OF MEN WHO ENJOYED GRANDEUR AND POSSESSED THE COUNTRY OF TOKHARISTAN AND THEIR DESCENDANTS ARE CALLED KHALUKH OR KHALAJ.Similarly KHILJI tribe has four popular sections these are LODHIS,SURIS,TURAN AND BURAN OR PURAN.So MUHAY SURI killed yazrad 3rd and became king of iran,khurasan and central asia,similarly the SURI governors of india in the times of GREEKS shows that khiljis are too much ancient.Again ZOROASTER was killed in fire by turani sardar TUR BUR TUR at  the age 78 some 4000 years ago in balkh as turan and buran are two famouse branches of khiljis and the name of that very trani sardar shows that tur for turan and bur for buran so khiljis were ruling balkh or bakhtar 4000 years ago.Similarly in 1005 AD multan was ruled by the lodhi branch of khilji.Similarly the famouse mountain of TURA BURA is after the name of TURAN and BURAN section of KHILJIS.Similarly Khiljis were attacking the kohistan in 143 hijri one must see the irani hisory for it.Similarly TUR was the second son of KING FAREEDUNE of persia and PURAN which became BURAN is also the persian name.So one must see all this historical facts then write something about the GREAT KHILJIS.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2008 at 20:31
Topic: The hepthalites & huns
Posted: 28-May-2008 at 22:28 By khilji pukhtune
 KHILJI/KHALJI/GHILJI/GHALJI/GHILZAI.
   Many discussions have been held on this tribe of afghans but we want history not story.
 The history of khiljis is very ancient in afghanistan and their relation goes to iranis as they say they are the sons of shah hussain ghori who belonged to sasani family of shahsabani of iran who were the royal family.According to the Mufahitul ulumi al khwarzmi which was written in 975 AD   HAYATILA IS A TRIBE OF MEN WHO ENJOYED GRANDEUR AND POSSESSED THE COUNTRY OF TOKHARISTAN AND THEIR DESCENDANTS ARE CALLED KHALUKH OR KHALAJ.Similarly KHILJI tribe has four popular sections these are LODHIS,SURIS,TURAN AND BURAN OR PURAN.So MUHAY SURI killed yazrad 3rd and became king of iran,khurasan and central asia,similarly the SURI governors of india in the times of GREEKS shows that khiljis are too much ancient.Again ZOROASTER was killed in fire by turani sardar TUR BUR TUR at  the age 78 some 4000 years ago in balkh as turan and buran are two famouse branches of khiljis and the name of that very trani sardar shows that tur for turan and bur for buran so khiljis were ruling balkh or bakhtar 4000 years ago.Similarly in 1005 AD multan was ruled by the lodhi branch of khilji.Similarly the famouse mountain of TURA BURA is after the name of TURAN and BURAN section of KHILJIS.Similarly Khiljis were attacking the kohistan in 143 hijri one must see the irani hisory for it.Similarly TUR was the second son of KING FAREEDUNE of persia and PURAN which became BURAN is also the persian name.So one must see all this historical facts then write something about the GREAT KHILJIS.

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