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The hepthalites & huns

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The hepthalites & huns
    Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 15:36
Lest I forget, Hephthalite dynasties were established in northern Inida if I am not mistaken. Ashok, perhaps you can enlighten us on this part of their history.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 05:04
Hey Seko,
 
White Huns in Indian subcontinent
 
The white Huns attacked India between 454 and 510 AD. They were actually pushed into India by actual Huns (or Kok Turks) during this period .As far as I believe that they were called and considered Huns by mistake. Though, their culture and physical descriptions were not so different from actual Huns, they might have been a group of Kushans who settled in Persia at the time of the fall of Kushan rule. When they were attacked by Kok-turks or genuine Huns, They had to enter India in order to save their life and for the same reason they had to fight out the tribes ruling India that time. They were no way related to the genuine Huns. Their natural assimilation into the Indian population is key evidence that they were accepted as a lost Indian tribe by other Kshatriyas. They were son worshippers and were called Shaiv (One who believes in Lord Siva). They were never discussed after 7th CE.
 
Today also we find many people in Kshatriya tribes (Gujjars, Jats & Mers) with Hun Surname and many of the clans and areas were named after the Hepthalites.

Details of hun Attacks and its consequences: 

The first attack under Chu-Han in 455 AD was repelled back by SkandaGupta and India was saved from Huns for a short period of 10 years. In 465 AD fresh Hun armies attacked Guptas under Tomar-han or Tomaran-1. This time the Guptas were totally vanished by Hunas and many flourishing cities, under Gupta territories, were burnt to ashes. it is also said that they killed innocent people for just fun. The Gurjars, who were ruling the north india under Guptas kept fighting  with hepthalites under Yasodharman. The ruling seat of hepthallites was Sakala (modern Sialkot in paksitan). Tourman-2 was killed by Gupta ruler Bhanugupta in 510 AD. After him his son Mihirgul (MihirGula or MihirKula has two meanings 1. Sunflower and 2. From solar dynasty) took over the throne, he was even crueler than his father. He was also defeated by Yasodharman in 528 AD.  The remaining Huns were assimilated into Kshatriya population. The Huns ruled as petty rulers in Kashmir until 567 AD under Vasukula, son of MihirGula. Nothing much is known about them after that.

But it is also said that the assimilition of Hephalites into kshatriyas changed the future of indian ruling dynasties the two main ruling clans in india namely Tomars and Chauhans were the descendents of Tomar-Han and Chu-han respectively. These two dynasties played a very crucial role in the politicial scenerio of India. Most of the rulers who ruled india after 6th century were actually from these two dynasties. They ruled until 1300 AD as Gujjars. After this point they ruled under Turks and Moghuls and were known as Rajputs.
 
Its amazing but till this date these clans are very famous for their fighting skills and strong physiques and are easily differentiated by their looks.
 
Famous White Hun Rulers in India

o Chu-han (?-454)

o Tomar-Han Ahsunvar (467- 496)

o Tomar-Han (496?- 502)

o Mihirakula (502 - 530)

o Vasukula-2 (530 567)

o Baka

o Vasukula-1 (Younger Brother of MihirGula)

 
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  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 06:03
Since Hindus marry within their groups, I feel these India Tomars & Chauhans, still leaving abundantly may be the most direct descendents of the huns found anywhere in the world. Ashok could correct me. I dont think any other culture maintains it's lineage so much.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 06:54
Originally posted by ashokharsana

 
The white Huns attacked India between 454 and 510 AD. They were actually pushed into India by actual Huns (or Kok Turks) during this period
 
Hunns and Gokrturks are not the same. The former preceded the latter for quite a time.
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 08:26

At this point in the discussion I would like to post this article on the Uar from Wiki and ask any and all of you to comment on it.  Apparently, the article is disputed due to a lack of citations, so if there is anything any of you agree or disagree with I'd like to know.  As far as I'm concerned, the article makes sense and should answer a lot of the questions that are being asked here.

Uar

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Uar, Chinese: ; pinyin: Hu (for Chinese etymology see Hu (滑)), was the self designation used by the dominant ethnicity in a confederation known to the Chinese as the Yanda (嚈噠) and to the west as the Hephthalites. It was the largest of one of the three ethnic components constituting the Hephthalite federation. Peoples with similar ethnicons had been present along the Silk Road for centuries, and several of the Central European family names actually derive from the names of such tribes. The Chinese classic Liang Zhigongtu describes them as originating in the Hua (state) (cf. Mongolia). Simokattes's term Uar is also sometimes written War or Var. The variation Hu (滑), is the name the Hephthalite polity used of themselves according to the Chinese classic Liang chih-kung-t'u.

Theophylaktos Simokattes, mentions the Hunnoi as the other major component under the Hephthal ruling elite. They are identified as the "true" Avars of the east; the true political force behind what Simokattes calls the "Pseudo-Avars" who eventually settled down in Transylvania. This was in response to the Gktrks who encouraged the Byzantines to regard the Avar people (associated with the Uyghurs?) who entered Europe as Pseudo-Avars.

(Chinese: 滑国; pinyin: Hugu) refers to Hua (state), which according to the "Book of Liang" and the "Liang Zhigongtu" was the origin of the Hephthalite country's Uar polity.

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[edit] Origin and migration

According to Ferdowsi their legendary ancestor was Afrasiabus. The sketch exhibited in the Portraits of Periodical Offering of Liang depicts the Uar\Hu (滑) envoy as East Asian and this along with J. Marquart's discovery of many similarities between the terms for the Hephthalites in India and words in the Mongolian language such as the term Khagan (可汗), have led scholars[1] to believe that at least a portion of their population had to have been of proto-Mongolic origin, while some of their practices remind us of Hūsm (呼似密)[citation needed]. This implies the diverse range of peoples under the Hepthalite dynasty. Like Procopius, contemporary Chinese chroniclers had their own theories about the origins of the Hephthalite and their "Uar" polity.

  • either the Hepthalites were related in some way to the Visha (Indo-Europeans known to the Chinese as the The Clan of Yue), originally pronounced something like *wor, though based in Turpan and conquered by the Rouran, they came from Pingyang and originally Hua (state) and were important in the early Jade trade. Pingyang remains the centre of the Hu (滑) clan even today.
  • or they were a branch of the Kang Chu-Gaoche descended from the general Bahua, based in Turpan they sided with the Southern Xiongnu of Pingyang against the Northern Xiongnu (hence the Hu (滑) clan's presence in Pingyang) but were later conquered by the Rouran,
  • or one scholar admitted that he could not make clear their origins at all.

Throughout the 5th century, it was the Uar who managed to succeed to the Central Eurasian Hun heritage in a campaign which spread from the Tian Shan to the Carpathians. Because of the Later Zhao the Oro (deer) people were divided, half going to the Heilongjiang-Amur and half went west. By 460 the Uar had taken over much of Central Eurasia from Xinjiang to the Volga River, though very little is known about the area from the late 5th to early 6th centuries.

[edit] The Yanda & The Uar/Hu

According to the Book of Liang, the Yanda were an offshoot of the Yuezhi, an Indo-European statelet situated to what is now Turpan. It mentions an envoy sent by their Yandaiyilituo/Ephthalite king from 516 to the court, at present day Nanjing. The Uar/Hu are supposed to have become a subject under the yoke of the Rouran as indicated in the sources.

Chinese chronicles recognise that the Yanda term actually only came from the name of a clan leading the Uar/Hu. Yanda in the Book of Wei, are supposed to be a variety of the Great Yuezhi while the Uar/Hu, who are also described, are possibly an offshoot of the Gaoche. The Book of Wei indicates, however, that the Yanda do not share a similar language with the Rouran or Gaoche. It is said that the Yanda language can be easily translated through the Tuyuhun, a group of peoples from the Koko Nor. Kazuo Enoki believed the Yanda to be an Iranian group [2] like the Hazara, in which case they may have been related to the Tocharians.

Throughout the 5th century, it was the Hu who managed on succeed to the steppe heritage in a campaign which spread from the Tian Shan to the Carpathians. By around 460, the Hu had taken over much of Central Eurasia from Xinjiang to the Volga River, and founded a capital at the city of Badiyan or Pendjikent, near what is now Khujand, though very little is known about the area from the late 5th to early 6th centuries.

[edit] Uar-Hunnoi

The Kidarite dynasty which ruled the Xionites came from the Uar. As a result, the Xionites have sometimes been called Uar-Hunnoi. Simokattes calls the Uar the "real" Avars of the east and the true political force behind what he calls the "pseudo" Avars who eventually settled down in Transylvania. Uar and Hunnoi are the names associated with the two biggest tribes of "Procopius's White Huns" commonly identified with the Sanskrit SvetaHuna. They were called Varkhon or Varkunites (OuarKhonitai) by Menander Protector. Procopius writes that these White Huns are white-skinned and have an organized kingship. According to him, their life is not wild/nomadic, and they live in cities. Around 630, Theophylaktos Simokattes wrote that the European "Avars" were initially composed of two nations, the Uar and the Hunnoi tribes. He wrote that: "...the Barsilt, the Unogurs and the Sabirs were struck with horror... and honoured the Newcommers with brilliant gifts..." [3] when the Avars first arrived in their lands in 555AD. The Uar and the Hunnoi are supposed to have united around 460 under the rule of one of the five Yuezhi families - the Hephthal. They were also joined near the end of the 6th century by the Zabender, Tarnach and Kotzagerek Huns and they became known as Onogurs, from whom the name Hungary derives. The Onogurs themselves were composed of three groups. See also Avars and Kabars. During the 7th century around 670 the Bulgars under Kouber and Asparukh, who were also part of their empire, revolted, the Kouber tribes moving south to the Pelasgian plain and Asparukh leading his people south of the Danube.

For more on the Uar-Hunnoi see Alchon.

[edit] Endnotes

  1. ^ "Attila and the Nomad Hordes" David Nicolle. Osprey Publishing (September 27, 1990)
  2. ^ Enoki, K. "The Liang shih-kung-t'u on the origin and migration of the Hu or Ephthalites," Journal of the Oriental Society of Australia 7:1-2 (December 1970):37-45
  3. ^ Theophilactus Simocatta, Historiae, -Ed. C. deBoor. Lipsiae, 1887, ps.251, 258
Grignaschi 1980 = M. Grignaschi, 'La Chute De L'Empire Hephthalite Dans Les Sources Byzantines et Perses et Le Probleme Des Avar,' Acta Antiqua Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, Tomus XXVIII Akademiai Kiado, Budapest (1980)
Haussig, Hans Wilhelm, Die Geschichte Zentralasiens und der Seidenstrae in vorislamischer Zeit, Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft 1983, ISBN 3-534-07869-1.
Schreiner, P. Theophylaktos Simokates, Geschichte.

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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 15:19
Originally posted by SuN.

Since Hindus marry within their groups, I feel these India Tomars & Chauhans, still leaving abundantly may be the most direct descendents of the huns found anywhere in the world. Ashok could correct me. I dont think any other culture maintains it's lineage so much.
 
I am afraid i'll have to correct you a bit, Hindus marry within their own caste or community but they seldom marry within their own clan,
 
that means a chauhan cant marry a chauhan, same is the case with tomars. But the point here is, tomars and chauhans came from the same hepthalites and they are fond these days in among gujjars, Jats and Rajputs in India and pakistan. They are very particular in getting married into their own caste. So we can say that Hindu tomars and chauhans can be called the most direct descendents of White hunas. Their physical attribute is also far different from other communities in India. They are also included among kshatriyas or marshal clans of India and wre known for their warlike tradition till this date.
 
In fact there is a clan in gujjars called Huns.
 
But there is another twist in the tale:
More than 1000 places in India (inhabited by Gujjars exclusively) are named after Huna chief like Jabila.
 
Jabalpur, jabila, Jabula, Jabul, Jabalgarh, Jabal etc etc. (many places with these names containing the name of Jabula)....
 
The Hapthalites were also well connected with the Kushans (yuhechis).. and to be honest thats the point of my interest.
 
world famous researches showed that hepthalites were actually a group of gujjars...
see:
 
Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland By Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 15:51

Ashokharsana,

2 qestions pls:-

a) You say there is no way for the White Huns related to the Genuine Huns,  the latter is meant by Attlia's Huns  or Xioung Nu (China)? And can you elaborate more on your agrument?

b) just interested to know if the descendants of Kshatriyas nowadays are used to be trained up as memebers of Indian modern army (becasue they are stronge and good in fighting....yes, the Gene )
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:16
Ashokharsana, who were the Turk-Shahi's? are they related with the White Huns? somebody told me that they were Buddhist or Hindu Turks, have you heard of them?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:19
"Attila Hunns" are referred simply as Hunns. So, when there is a term "Hunns" it's about "the Hunns of Attila." Xiongnu are not referred as Hunns but just Xiongnu.
 
Hunns were the product of mixture between Xiongnu and Finno-ugrian tribes, but not just a pure off shot of Xiongnu.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:50
...on top of that the Huns of Europe took as many follwers as they could. Goths, proto-Bulgars, Alans and Slavs and such with them.
 
There is the possibility that the Huns were called 'Khoini' by Ptolemy in ad160. Similar to the word Khun (turkic), hence Hun. They lived north of the Azov sea at that time. Whether Ob-Ugrian, Turkic or Mongol, these Huns had very little to do with the Xiongnu.
 
 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 03:35
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by ashokharsana

 
The white Huns attacked India between 454 and 510 AD. They were actually pushed into India by actual Huns (or Kok Turks) during this period
 
Hunns and Gokrturks are not the same. The former preceded the latter for quite a time.
 
Hey Sarmat,
 
Gok Turks started entering the territories of hepthalites 450 AD.
They were most probabaly a part of Xiongnu khagnate. But when Tartars, (Eurasian Avars or Rourans) became powerful the gok turks had to migrate to their south where sassanions and hepthals were already under conflict. The Gok Turks sided with the Sassanians for political reasons and hapthalites had to move towards their south-east.
 
This can be easily understood by the help of a map:
 
 
 


Edited by ashokharsana - 02-Nov-2007 at 03:53
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 03:37
 

Edited by ashokharsana - 02-Nov-2007 at 03:51
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 03:51
 
 
 
In This Map we can see three arrows A, B & C
 
A shows the invasion of Rourans on the Gokturks, B shows the movement of Gokturks immedietely following the invasion of Rourans.
 
They had to enter the terroteries where sassanians were already under a conflict. Gokturks intefered and the The Hapthalites had to migrate towards their east for quite sometime. Though the Hepthalites fought back and captured a large territory including the area between persia and north India. The Gokturks kept restoring their power till 550 AD.
 
C shows the route of migration of hepthalites.
 


Edited by ashokharsana - 02-Nov-2007 at 03:52
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 03:58
Originally posted by Xianpei

Ashokharsana,

2 qestions pls:-

a) You say there is no way for the White Huns related to the Genuine Huns,  the latter is meant by Attlia's Huns  or Xioung Nu (China)? And can you elaborate more on your agrument?

b) just interested to know if the descendants of Kshatriyas nowadays are used to be trained up as memebers of Indian modern army (becasue they are stronge and good in fighting....yes, the Gene )
 
Hey Xianpei,
 
Just because there are no connections proved till date, There dates are also different and the area they captured comes no way in conicided with the route taken by Actual Huns. Basicaly they were called Huns becasue of their very nomadic lifestyle. Hun was used as a term to denote a nomadic warlike tribe.
 
And its 100% true that kshatiryas strongly dominate the modern Indian army and police services. Its amazing but true that 80% of indian army comes from the kshatriyas castes which form hardly 10% of indian population.
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 04:17
Appreciate your info on the Hepthalites ashok. Do you know if those who did settle east, instead of the ones who went to europe, had any Rourans with them?
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 04:32
Originally posted by Bulldog

Ashokharsana, who were the Turk-Shahi's? are they related with the White Huns? somebody told me that they were Buddhist or Hindu Turks, have you heard of them?
 
Hi There,
 
The Turk Shahis were the descendents of Kushans. The Indo Sassanians or kidarites attempted various invasions on declining Kushans between 225 to 275 AD. After the fall of Kushans empire in around 275 AD. The Kushans moved to different places in order to save their life and culture.
 
Some of them moved to himalayas,
 
some who were posted in (today's) Afghanistan had to settle there under the Indo-sassnaians....
 
Some of them moved eastwards and kept ruling till 320 AD (The last Kushan Ruler Kipunada is believed to have ruled till 375 AD under Guptas)
 
the rest of the kushans migrated to their south and kept ruling as petty rulers under the kushanShahs in the area near Kabul.
This last group was known as Shahis. They got mixed with Turks as they were surrounded by gokturks and sassanians from all sided. Thats why they were called Turk shahis. They were budhisth by relegion (same as the Kushans were). But later in around 875 AD the Hindus became dominant in the nearby aera and the brahmin Minister "kallar" killed the last turk shahi King named Katorman and began the new line known as Hindu Shahi dynasty.
 
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 08:08
There's no doubt that some Rourans went to India during the period of Hephthalite rule.  In fact, one of the Rouran rulers fled to the Hephthalites after a defeat in the mid-500's.  There is a group in India to this day with a name very similar to Rouran that claims descent from them.  I'm sure Ashok could provide the details.
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 08:20
Originally posted by Seko

...on top of that the Huns of Europe took as many follwers as they could. Goths, proto-Bulgars, Alans and Slavs and such with them.
 
There is the possibility that the Huns were called 'Khoini' by Ptolemy in ad160. Similar to the word Khun (turkic), hence Hun. They lived north of the Azov sea at that time. Whether Ob-Ugrian, Turkic or Mongol, these Huns had very little to do with the Xiongnu.
 
 
They had very little to do with the Xiongnu, except that they were the northern branch of the Xiongnu who were defeated by the Han dynasty forces and forced to migrate westward.  At least that's what my history text says.Wink  Seeing that they had no historians amongst them leaving a written record, we have to make certain inferences.  Even so, recently a Byzantine document has been translated that lists the ancestors of Bulgarian kings and the document supposedly states that those kings were ultimately descended from Mao Dun.  Presumably, that would be the same Mao Dun of the Xiongnu.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 14:25
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

There's no doubt that some Rourans went to India during the period of Hephthalite rule.  In fact, one of the Rouran rulers fled to the Hephthalites after a defeat in the mid-500's.  There is a group in India to this day with a name very similar to Rouran that claims descent from them.  I'm sure Ashok could provide the details.
 
Yeah,
 
Its a quite new discovery in my research but no harm in sharing it here.
 
The first hepthalite who attacked the Gupta empire in 454 AD named "Chuhan" or Chu-Han"  or Yujiul Tuhezhen
(whose descendents ranked highest among all ksahtiryas later as "chuhans")
was actually a Rouran by origin and he came forward to help their vassal (hepthalites) against the Gokturks. Gokturks were getting help from sassanians and western wei and other Xianbei groups.
 
* As I told about Gokturks,  a turkic group, that they were also a part of Xiongnu  confederations. They were ruling under rourans until the mid of 5ht century. After a marriage proposal to the Rouran was rebuffed, the Gokturks joined with the Western Wei. They were expelled from the Xiongnu territories by Rourans. In order to take revenge, Gokturks invaded the hepthalite khagnate who were vassals of Rourans. At one instance the joint forces of Gokturks and Sassanians defeated the Rourans and Hepthalites, Te defeated group had to fall upon the Gupta empire once in 454 AD and again in 467 AD. First time they entered Indian under their Chief Rouran ruler "Chu-han". After his detah in 454 AD the hapthalite king named Tormana or Tomar-han sacked the Guptas and captured a large part of central & south asia. 
Later in around 500 AD the Rourans and hepthalites hurled them back till the western borders of persia. Finally in around 555 AD the Gokturks managed to finish the Rourans for ever. The hepthalites were also weekned and could hardly last till a century later.
 
 
For Rourans:
There is a particular kshatriya community in India called Roar which are very close to the Kshatriya "tomars and Huns" and its amazing to belive that they came to india along with the hepthalites Hordes only, they use same surname and culture as the other kshatriyas turned hatpthalites used but still keep their community distant and never liked to be included in other kshatriyas. Though they are a par of kshatiryas but they think they are superior to the other kshatriyas. They strictly marry within their own caste and strictly follow the clan system.
 
 
Isnt it Amazing ?
 
 
 


Edited by ashokharsana - 02-Nov-2007 at 15:10
The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars
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