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The hepthalites & huns
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ashokharsana View Drop Down
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The hepthalites & huns
    Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 09:57

I want to know about "Jabila tha Hun", as many casts and many important towns (more than 10 in my knowlidge) in India traced their origin from one shahi Jabila or Jabla who was most probably a hun (or hepthallite?).

1. Was he wrongly called a HUN, as he was once described as a ruler of iran ?
 
2. Was he related to thehepthallite Toraman and mihirkula ?
 
Can anybody help ?
 
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 14:07
Wow! First I've heard of him. Come to think about it I have heard about that other great warrior Jabba the Hutt.
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Posts: 313 		  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 06:59
me too, like who the hell is Jabila?
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 12:02
If you google Jabila tha Hun the only result you get is to this thread.  LOL
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2007 at 05:05
See here one Javula is described as the forefather of both Gujjars and white huns.............
 
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Posts: 93 		  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2007 at 08:35

It would be interesting to read the rest of that passage you posted.  I'd like to know more about this Mandasor inscription which is the only Indian evidence linking Toramana to the Hunas.

Anyway, judging from the part of the selection you provided, it would appear that the Javulas were Huns.  Toramana is always identified by historians as an Ephthalite king. 

I am assuming that Javula and Jabila are the same, in which case I would say "no" to your first question, he was not wrongly called a Hun.  Also, don't forget that the Hunas held sway over eastern Iran at this time, where they were known as Xiyon.

I would answer "yes" to your second question because, once again, both Toramanas are always described by historians as being part of the Ephthalite dynasty.
 
Some say that Ephthalites were not "true" Huns, but judging from what I've read on the subject, the Ephthalites were probably an ethnic mix of the dregs of the Eurasian Huns along with a possible Kushan and/or Iranic ruling class.  They were known to the Chinese as the Hua and in Europe they were called Avars.  The name "Ephthalite" is thought to be derived from "Yoptal" which a Korean source identified as the name of one of the ruling families of the Hua.
 
Hope that helps.Big%20smile


Edited by TheMysticNomad - 02-Aug-2007 at 08:39
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Posts: 313 		  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 03:56
Nop, Avars were different, Juan-Juans were called avars in Europe after the crossed Caucasus towards Eurpe
 
Ephtalites were actually mainly huns, and Kushans were also mostly of Turkish origin.
 
They actuall fought against Iranians, and it is a fact that Gokturks together with Sassanids destroyed Ephtalits or white Huns
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 12:14
Here is that inscription:
 
 
(L. 4.) He who, spurning (the confinement of) the boundaries of his own house, enjoys those countries, thickly covered over with deserts and mountains and trees and thickets and rivers and strong-armed heroes, (and) having (their) kings assaulted by (his) prowess, which were not enjoyed (even) by the lords of the Guptas, whose prowess was displayed by invading the whole (remainder of the) earth, (and) which the command of the chiefs of the Hnas , that established itself on the tiaras of (many) kings, failed to penetrate:
 
L.6.) He by whom (his) head has never been brought into the humility of obeisance to any other save (the god) Sthnu; he, through the embraces of whose arms (Himlaya) the mountain of snow carries no longer the pride of the title of being a place that is difficult of access; he to whose two feet respect was paid, with complimentary presents of the flowers from the lock of hair on the top of (his) head, by even that (famous) king Mihirakula, whose forehead was pained through being bent low down by the strength of (his) arm in (the act of compelling) obeisance:
 
 
Here we see that Son of Toramana "mihirkul" is being addressed as Hun.
 
I am still searching for the inscription which tells us about Toramana
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 12:20
And yess Avars were totally different..
 
By the way, Kushans were related to red Huns or chionites (Chionites or Kushanshahs were a group of Yuhechis which took over Kushans, here we are not sure whether they were related to White huns as well?
 
Here we have two more questions :
 
1. How Red Huns or chionites were related to sassanids ?
 
2. Why they were called red-HUNS ?
 
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Posts: 313 		  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 18:33

Is there are a red one as well?

 
Man our ancestors were very colorful though
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2007 at 13:00
Originally posted by Kerimoglu

Is there are a red one as well?

 
Man our ancestors were very colorful though
i think those colors did meand something else, directions maybe?
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Originally posted by DayI

i think those colors did meand something else, directions maybe?


     Yes for example in Mongol culture (I'm sure other central Asian cultures have it too) each cardinal direction is represented by a color.
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Posts: 313 		  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2007 at 03:31
I know that of course, but it would have been better to name them after the founder king or smth. If a daltonic man reads history he would definetely mix everything.
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 05:09
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Kerimoglu

Is there are a red one as well?

 
Man our ancestors were very colorful though
i think those colors did meand something else, directions maybe?
 
Red huns were called so because of their hair color.
 
 
The RED HUNS or Kidarite (Chinese: Ki-To-Lo) dynasty of the "Ki" clan led the Xionites and came from the proto-Mongolic Uar about whom it has been said that their legendary ancestor was Afrasiabus.
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 05:11

The southern or "Red" Kidarite vassals to the Kushans in NWFP, became better known as Red Huns from 360 AD after Kidara II led a Bactrian portion of Hunni to overthrow the Kushans in India. At this time Kidarite Hunni (Kidarites) successfully controlled the length of the Oxus from the Hindu Kush all the way to the Aral Sea.

Kidara I fl. c. 320 CE
Kungas 330's ?
Varhran I fl. c. 340
Grumbat c. 358-c. 380
Kidara (II ?) fl. c. 360
Brahmi Buddhatala fl. c. 370
unknown fl. 388/400
Varhran (II) fl. c. 425
Goboziko fl. c. 450
Salanavira mid 400's
Vinayaditya late 400's
Kandik early 500's

Kidara's southern Xionites were the first "Hunas" to bother India. Indian records note that the Hūna had established themselves in Afghanistan and NWFP in present day Pakistan by the first half of the fifth century, and the Gupta emperor Skandagupta had repelled a Hūna invasion in 455.
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Posts: 313 		  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 08:53
thanks for the information. So it was Afrasiab who fought from our side against persians huh?
 
 
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 14:19
Originally posted by ashokharsana

 
Red huns were called so because of their hair color.
 


of course not. the colours in the Steppe culture have a meaning of directions as ArmenianSurvival said, north, south, west and east = black, red, white and blue. or do you think the white Huns had white hairs?
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 23:41

EDITED



Edited by ashokharsana - 08-Aug-2007 at 23:44
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 23:43
 or do you think the white Huns had white hairs
 
Yess they were called White hunas because they were fair skinned as compared to black huns who raided europe. In sanskrit also they were called Shvet Huns (Shvet meaning white).
 
BTW what the white huns had to take from WEST dirtection ?
and How the Red Huns related to SOUTH ?
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 10:45
About the direction thing, If my memory serves me correctly I think blue is for east. Red is for west. Black and white for north and south. Not sure which one of the latter though.

Edited by Seko - 09-Aug-2007 at 10:45
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