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The hepthalites & huns

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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The hepthalites & huns
    Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 13:49
Originally posted by Kerimoglu

If you mean Rourans as Juan-Juans, then yes, they are Avars, Avars are not Xiong-nu, theny might have some xiong-nu tribesmen in their ranks, of course, since they're mixed, 
 
Rouran or Ruru or Ruan Ruan or Juan Juan were one and the same group. Are you sure Juan Juan were Avars ?
 
 
but xiong-nu is mostly turnet do be Gok-Turk, rather than Avar. 
 
Yeah its very much a possibility.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 13:37

I wish if someone could exactly translate the map given here by MisticNomad.. It will be a great help.

 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 13:24
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Rouran had more connectionto to Xianbi, who were also proto-Mongolian speakers rather then with Xiongnu.
 
Hope this will clear all confusions:
 
The founder of Rouran dynasty was serving under a king of Touba tribe (One of the xianbei confederatoins), and hence rourans spoke the proto-mogolian language. Later he claimed independence and founded his own cofederations by collecting all nomad hordes scattered around china. His descendent defeated the Xianbeis.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Xiongnu state was defeated by Chinese and Xianbei (Xianbi) in 2 century AD. Then they disappeared from the region.
  
 
Yeah The Xioungnu disapeared in around 200 AD but they came back as Gokturks, isnt it ?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

unlike Xiongnu who were Turkic Rouran spoke proto-Mongolian language.
  
 
I told the reason already.
But Even if the Rourans were different from XiongNus, There was certainly some kind of relationship between them. It is possible that the remnents of Xiongnu joined the Rourans aganist the Xianbei (quite a strong possibility) but later they divided on some issues and left the Rourans as GokTurks.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

What makes this map particular incorrect is that when the Turks got to Sogdiana, Rouran already had lost their Kaganate and didn't control any territories which could be drawn on the map.
 
Not right because the last Rouran group was finished by Gokturks in around 555 AD when they killed many Rourans and their dynasty came to an end (If they were not converted into Avars).
Till this time (specially between 450 to 510 AD) Rourans and hepthelites proved strong enough to hurl back the Joint armies of Gokturks and Sassanians. (Said In the context of hepthallite invasion to india.)
 
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Edited by ashokharsana - 03-Nov-2007 at 13:38
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 11:54
Originally posted by Xianpei

Hi ! TheMysticNomad,

I can tell from the map there are two arrows showing the routings:

1. about the invasion of White Huns (in the left hand side)
2. about the Chinese famous Buddhist monk XuanZang who travelled fm Chang An to India.

This is the map showing Rouran and  White Hun (Yida) territory in AD500.
But not related to any migration route of Rouran.


 
Thanks for clearing that up!  I was really intrigued by this map which I found in the Wiki article for Rourans, so it's great to have someone translate it.
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  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 08:35
If you mean Rourans as Juan-Juans, then yes, they are Avars, Avars are not Xiong-nu, theny might have some xiong-nu tribesmen in their ranks, of course, since they're mixed, but xiong-nu is mostly turnet do be Gok-Turk, rather than Avar. 
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 07:36
Hi ! TheMysticNomad,

I can tell from the map there are two arrows showing the routings:

1. about the invasion of White Huns (in the left hand side)
2. about the Chinese famous Buddhist monk XuanZang who travelled fm Chang An to India.

This is the map showing Rouran and  White Hun (Yida) territory in AD500.
But not related to any migration route of Rouran.


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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 07:35

No, the arrows on the map show the migration of Hephtalite 厌哒 (Yanda) in Chinese.

Rouran territory is marked with the big Characters 柔然 (Rouran) right to the south east from lake Balkhash.

 



Edited by Sarmat12 - 03-Nov-2007 at 07:39
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 07:15
Thanks for the info, Ashok.  Here's a map that's supposed to show the Rouran migration route, but since I can't read Chinese I'm not 100% sure.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 06:09
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

There's no doubt that some Rourans went to India during the period of Hephthalite rule.  In fact, one of the Rouran rulers fled to the Hephthalites after a defeat in the mid-500's.  There is a group in India to this day with a name very similar to Rouran that claims descent from them.  I'm sure Ashok could provide the details.
 
Apart from the Rors or Rours there is another caste in India which follow the same tradition followed by Rours, this community namely 'Arora' claims to rule the same area which was ruled by hepthalites and they also claim that they are "khsatriyas".
 
Their Hometown Arour is situated in Sindh. Another nearby city is known as Rouri or Rohri. 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 06:06
Originally posted by ashokharsana

 
The map presented here shows the situations in which hepthalites along with Rourans entered Indian subcontinent.  We are not emphasizing over the Rourans and Xioungnu here. It is generally believed (might not be 100% true) that Rouran who were a part (or vassals) of Xiongnu Khanate were later known as Avars when they were defeated by Turkic group called Gokturks in around 550 AD.
 
Dear ashokharsana,
 
 I'm sorry, but this map is nonsense. Xiongnu state was defeated by Chinese and Xianbei (Xianbi) in 2 century AD. Then they disappeared from the region.
 
Rourans lived in 5-6 century (there is 300 years gap between them and Xiongnu). Moreoever, unlike Xiongnu who were Turkic Rouran spoke proto-Mongolian language.
 
Originally posted by ashokharsana

It is also true that the Turkish group "Gokturks" and Rourans were somehow associated with the XiongNu like Huns. The exact relationship is uncertain but thats a different arguement and not needed to acertain the hepthlites connection with the neighbouring tribes.
 
 
Rouran had more connectionto to Xianbi, who were also proto-Mongolian speakers rather then with Xiongnu.
 
What makes this map particular incorrect is that when the Turks got to Sogdiana, Rouran already had lost their Kaganate and didn't control any territories which could be drawn on the map.
 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 04:52
Originally posted by Sarmat12

This map is simply incorrect. First of all nor Rouran, not Avars are Xiongnu, there are centuries between them.
 
Secondly, there is only a hypo that a part of Rouran became Avars, it's not complitely proved anyway.
 
Thirdly, it were Turks who destroyed the Rouran confederation, by the time Turks reached Oxus region Rouran already didn't have their independent confereration and faded from the history map.
 
Sarmat,
 
The map presented here shows the situations in which hepthalites along with Rourans entered Indian subcontinent.  We are not emphasizing over the Rourans and Xioungnu here. It is generally believed (might not be 100% true) that Rouran who were a part (or vassals) of Xiongnu Khanate were later known as Avars when they were defeated by Turkic group called Gokturks in around 550 AD.
 
It is also true that the Turkish group "Gokturks" and Rourans were somehow associated with the XiongNu like Huns. The exact relationship is uncertain but thats a different arguement and not needed to acertain the hepthlites connection with the neighbouring tribes.
 
Hope its clear now.
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 17:26
This map is simply incorrect. First of all nor Rouran, not Avars are Xiongnu, there are centuries between them.
 
Secondly, there is only a hypo that a part of Rouran became Avars, it's not complitely proved anyway.
 
Thirdly, it were Turks who destroyed the Rouran confederation, by the time Turks reached Oxus region Rouran already didn't have their independent confereration and faded from the history map.
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 16:00
YES,  It's interesting and informative!

In the map, you indicate that "Rouran or Avars (Xioung Nu)"...  Can you clarify if you meant Avars = Xioung Nu   or you do not mean that, actually.

I just thought Avars is not = Xioung nu, though there could be some relation.
Thanks!
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 15:20
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 14:25
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

There's no doubt that some Rourans went to India during the period of Hephthalite rule.  In fact, one of the Rouran rulers fled to the Hephthalites after a defeat in the mid-500's.  There is a group in India to this day with a name very similar to Rouran that claims descent from them.  I'm sure Ashok could provide the details.
 
Yeah,
 
Its a quite new discovery in my research but no harm in sharing it here.
 
The first hepthalite who attacked the Gupta empire in 454 AD named "Chuhan" or Chu-Han"  or Yujiul Tuhezhen
(whose descendents ranked highest among all ksahtiryas later as "chuhans")
was actually a Rouran by origin and he came forward to help their vassal (hepthalites) against the Gokturks. Gokturks were getting help from sassanians and western wei and other Xianbei groups.
 
* As I told about Gokturks,  a turkic group, that they were also a part of Xiongnu  confederations. They were ruling under rourans until the mid of 5ht century. After a marriage proposal to the Rouran was rebuffed, the Gokturks joined with the Western Wei. They were expelled from the Xiongnu territories by Rourans. In order to take revenge, Gokturks invaded the hepthalite khagnate who were vassals of Rourans. At one instance the joint forces of Gokturks and Sassanians defeated the Rourans and Hepthalites, Te defeated group had to fall upon the Gupta empire once in 454 AD and again in 467 AD. First time they entered Indian under their Chief Rouran ruler "Chu-han". After his detah in 454 AD the hapthalite king named Tormana or Tomar-han sacked the Guptas and captured a large part of central & south asia. 
Later in around 500 AD the Rourans and hepthalites hurled them back till the western borders of persia. Finally in around 555 AD the Gokturks managed to finish the Rourans for ever. The hepthalites were also weekned and could hardly last till a century later.
 
 
For Rourans:
There is a particular kshatriya community in India called Roar which are very close to the Kshatriya "tomars and Huns" and its amazing to belive that they came to india along with the hepthalites Hordes only, they use same surname and culture as the other kshatriyas turned hatpthalites used but still keep their community distant and never liked to be included in other kshatriyas. Though they are a par of kshatiryas but they think they are superior to the other kshatriyas. They strictly marry within their own caste and strictly follow the clan system.
 
 
Isnt it Amazing ?
 
 
 


Edited by ashokharsana - 02-Nov-2007 at 15:10
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 08:20
Originally posted by Seko

...on top of that the Huns of Europe took as many follwers as they could. Goths, proto-Bulgars, Alans and Slavs and such with them.
 
There is the possibility that the Huns were called 'Khoini' by Ptolemy in ad160. Similar to the word Khun (turkic), hence Hun. They lived north of the Azov sea at that time. Whether Ob-Ugrian, Turkic or Mongol, these Huns had very little to do with the Xiongnu.
 
 
They had very little to do with the Xiongnu, except that they were the northern branch of the Xiongnu who were defeated by the Han dynasty forces and forced to migrate westward.  At least that's what my history text says.Wink  Seeing that they had no historians amongst them leaving a written record, we have to make certain inferences.  Even so, recently a Byzantine document has been translated that lists the ancestors of Bulgarian kings and the document supposedly states that those kings were ultimately descended from Mao Dun.  Presumably, that would be the same Mao Dun of the Xiongnu.
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 08:08
There's no doubt that some Rourans went to India during the period of Hephthalite rule.  In fact, one of the Rouran rulers fled to the Hephthalites after a defeat in the mid-500's.  There is a group in India to this day with a name very similar to Rouran that claims descent from them.  I'm sure Ashok could provide the details.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 04:32
Originally posted by Bulldog

Ashokharsana, who were the Turk-Shahi's? are they related with the White Huns? somebody told me that they were Buddhist or Hindu Turks, have you heard of them?
 
Hi There,
 
The Turk Shahis were the descendents of Kushans. The Indo Sassanians or kidarites attempted various invasions on declining Kushans between 225 to 275 AD. After the fall of Kushans empire in around 275 AD. The Kushans moved to different places in order to save their life and culture.
 
Some of them moved to himalayas,
 
some who were posted in (today's) Afghanistan had to settle there under the Indo-sassnaians....
 
Some of them moved eastwards and kept ruling till 320 AD (The last Kushan Ruler Kipunada is believed to have ruled till 375 AD under Guptas)
 
the rest of the kushans migrated to their south and kept ruling as petty rulers under the kushanShahs in the area near Kabul.
This last group was known as Shahis. They got mixed with Turks as they were surrounded by gokturks and sassanians from all sided. Thats why they were called Turk shahis. They were budhisth by relegion (same as the Kushans were). But later in around 875 AD the Hindus became dominant in the nearby aera and the brahmin Minister "kallar" killed the last turk shahi King named Katorman and began the new line known as Hindu Shahi dynasty.
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 04:17
Appreciate your info on the Hepthalites ashok. Do you know if those who did settle east, instead of the ones who went to europe, had any Rourans with them?
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 03:58
Originally posted by Xianpei

Ashokharsana,

2 qestions pls:-

a) You say there is no way for the White Huns related to the Genuine Huns,  the latter is meant by Attlia's Huns  or Xioung Nu (China)? And can you elaborate more on your agrument?

b) just interested to know if the descendants of Kshatriyas nowadays are used to be trained up as memebers of Indian modern army (becasue they are stronge and good in fighting....yes, the Gene )
 
Hey Xianpei,
 
Just because there are no connections proved till date, There dates are also different and the area they captured comes no way in conicided with the route taken by Actual Huns. Basicaly they were called Huns becasue of their very nomadic lifestyle. Hun was used as a term to denote a nomadic warlike tribe.
 
And its 100% true that kshatiryas strongly dominate the modern Indian army and police services. Its amazing but true that 80% of indian army comes from the kshatriyas castes which form hardly 10% of indian population.
 
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