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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkic Peoples
    Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:08


Originally posted by omergun

You, saying that Sultan Nazarbayev meant Trkic, is enough to see that you have a problem with Trks.
 
 
Yeah, my wife is Tuvinian and I indeed have  problems with Turks (in a meaning as a member of any of the peoples speaking Turkic languages) when I have another argument with her. LOL 
 
Originally posted by omergun

You are making things up, you are the one who should give a source which shows your argument is true, Bulldog already came with his source, your mind is so full with hate, you are asking for a source while he gave a source already. http://www.sonsoftheconquerors.com/17001.html
 
I dont know with what your mind is filled with. This is what Bulldog's "source" says:
 
Mr. POPE: ...And even if you ask someone like President Nazarbayev, `What are you?' and his first answer's...  

 SIEGEL: He of Kazakhstan.  

 Mr. POPE: Yeah, the president of Kazakhstan. He says, `I am a Turk.' And you look at him slightly oddly because Turk now means a citizen of Turkey. He says, `No, not like that. We sent armies from here 500 years ago, a thousand years ago, to conquer Turkey. They married the local population, and now they're called Turkey. But the real Turks are still here in Central Asia, and it's us.'  
 
........
 
Yeah. It's Mr. Pope says not Mr. Nazarbaev. Moreover, now I doubt Mr.Pope's competence in Turkic studies, since it's for sure that Kazakhs didn't send any armies to conquer Turkey 500 years ago.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:12
Central Asia: Turkey Lifts Visa Requirement For Post-Soviet States
By Gulnoza Saidazimova
Turkey%20--%20Map,%20undated
(RFE/RL)
July 31, 2007 (RFE/RL) -- Ankara has lifted its visa requirement for tourist visits to Turkey of up to 30 days by citizens of Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, and Mongolia.

Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman Mehmet Gunay told RFE/RL's Uzbek Service on July 30 that Ankara has unilaterally abolished short-term visas for citizens of the four former Soviet republics as well as Mongolia starting on August 1.

Visa-Free Regime

"The decision of the cabinet of ministers was announced in the [official] 'Resmi Gazete' newspaper and came into force," he said. "According to the decree, holders of passports from Azerbaijan, Mongolia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan do not need a visa for tourist visits of up to 30 days. They can come [to Turkey] without visas."

The number of tourists and labor migrants -- both legal and illegal -- is likely to rise in the aftermath of the abolition of the short-term visa.

Turkey has had a visa-free regime with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan along with Georgia have also enjoyed visa-free relations with Turkey.

Officials in Ankara first voiced the intention to abolish visa regimes with the four former Soviet republics and Mongolia earlier this month. Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul told the Istanbul-based daily "Zaman" that Turkey would become the second home for all Turks and Muslims.

The decision comes after the victory of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Justice and Development (AK) Party in parliamentary polls July 22.

Authorities in the affected countries welcomed the move.

An Aid To Businesses

Tajik Economy and Trade Ministry spokesman Ghafurjon Rasuli spoke to RFE/RLs Tajik Service.

"Of course, it will help strengthen [mutual] cooperation," he said. "It will also give an opportunity to Tajik businessmen to go to that country without difficulties and do business there."

Turkish entrepreneurs doing business in the post-Soviet countries also see Ankaras decision as opening a door to new business opportunities.

Kenan Saglikli is the head of the Turkish company Akgul in the Azerbaijani capital, Baku.

"Turkish businessmen who wanted to come here have faced many difficulties," he said. "Now, the abolition of the visa regime opens a great opportunity for businessmen from both Turkey and Azerbaijan. It's a great move. It will be even better when the Azerbaijani government will make a similar decision."

Turkey was one of the first countries to declare its support for the newly independent countries of Central Asia and Azerbaijan after the 1991 Soviet collapse. Turkish people have also said they were happy to embrace their Turkic-speaking "brother nations."

Reviving Pan-Turkism?

Turkish businesses brought a great deal of investment to Central Asia, Turkish colleges opened throughout the region, while many Central Asian students also came to Turkey to study at universities.

Turkey has also quickly become one of the major destinations for shuttle-traders from the post-Soviet republics, while Turkish resorts like Antalya have become a familiar place for some of the wealthier people from Central Asia and Azerbaijan to spend their vacations.

But the closer ties between Turkey and Central Asian countries have also brought some drawbacks. Turkey has become a transit route and a destination country for prostitutes and other illegal migrants from the former Soviet republics.

Shortly after the euphoria of independence passed, some Central Asian politicians started voicing concern over Ankara's possible intention to replace an old "big brother" -- Russia -- while some scholars worried about the possible revival of pan-Turkism.

Over the years the relationships between the former Soviet republics and Turkey have calmed and become more pragmatic.

Turkic-Speaking Countries 'Flagman'

However, Ankara's decision now to lift visa requirements seems to have stirred up concern about Turkey's possible hegemonic intentions.

Qubat Ibadoglu, the director of the Baku-based Center for Economic Research, spoke to RFE/RL's Azerbaijani Service.

"One of the important goals of Turkey is to become the flagman of the Turkic-speaking countries and to expand its hegemonic opportunities among them," Ibadoglu said. "It wants to expand cooperation in the fields of foreign trade, currency exchange, and exports. [The recent move to end the visa regime] is the first step."

Among the new countries included in the visa-free policy, Uzbekistan has had the most politicized relations with Turkey.

Uzbek President Islam Karimov made critical remarks about the Turkish leadership's alleged support for Uzbek opposition members who found refuge in Turkey. Among them was the leader of the Uzbek opposition party Erk, Muhammad Solih, who fled Uzbekistan in 1993 after facing harassment at home.

Turkish-Uzbek Problems

The relations between Ankara and Tashkent soured even further after the February 1999 bombings in Tashkent.

The Karimov government accused Solih of masterminding the bombings. Solih was tried in absentia and sentenced to a lengthy prison term on terrorism charges.

Solih was forced to leave Turkey and received political asylum in Europe.

Uzbekistan citizens were able to buy $10 visas at airports and other border points until June 1, 2003.

Afterwards, Turkey introduced a full-visa regime for Uzbek citizens after reports of Turkish businessmen having difficulties getting Uzbek visas.

The new $80 visa fee did not stop Uzbeks from traveling to Turkey: numerous shuttle-traders continued to go to Istanbul and other Turkish cities, while many others stayed and worked there illegally.

Muhsin recently spoke to RFE/RL's Uzbek Service from Istanbul.

Vacation Destination

"Yes, there are many of them," he said. "One can see a lot of young Uzbeks, mostly in big cities like Istanbul, Ankara, and Antalya. There are very few among them who came to study here. Others have come to work and earn money."

The number of tourists and labor migrants -- both legal and illegal -- is likely to rise in the aftermath of the abolition of the short-term visa.

Over 40,000 Kazakhs and nearly 2,000 Uzbeks visited Antalya resorts in 2006.

Ankara has lifted these short-term visa requirements for the four post-Soviet countries unilaterally.

Turkish citizens willing to visit Uzbekistan or Tajikistan have so far had to go through a regular procedure to get visas from the embassy and consulates. Will Central Asians reciprocate to Turkey with a similar friendly move?

"It is up to them," said Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman Gunay.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/07/D5DDD3EF-4CFB-4964-8FCA-592241578000.html

 

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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:15
Originally posted by omergun

Dont let me laugh dude. I want to ask you something, if Trkish nation is based on Ottoman identity, then on what is Ottoman Identity based on? More questions=> How and when did Ottoman Empire appear, who is Osman Bey and what is his Origin, who are Oguz Trks and were did they come from and whos descendents are they of, how was the situation of Trks in Ottoman Period in Anadolu(Anatolia), do you know the meaning beyliks and what they count for? Ottoman Beyligi was a state of the earlier Trk Selcuk Empire. In Anatolia the Beyliks were like states. A Beylik gets his name of the famillies/tribes who settled in that state, just like the name Trks were the main population in all these Beyliks.

You could trace the origin of Turks in pre - historic times as well. I'm sure Turkic people will be happy to be ruled by Great T-Rex Khan. Sorry, but I have no time for this nonsensical gibberish. The concept of nation is a few century old and 'Turkish nation' was formulated by people who were inspired by Western ideas. Mustafa Kemal, the creator of Turkish nation, attempted to assimilate Muslims into Turks and arguably just renamed the Ottoman identity.

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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:15
Originally posted by Bulldog

Oh and your "blog", it has nothing to do with the post, turning a brawl among disgrunted workers into some ethnic super war is a joke.
 
You want the official policies, what is really happening, instead of making propoganda out of a petty brawl.
 
Here.
 
 

SPIRIT OF COOPERATION DOMINATES TURKIC SUMMIT
Mevlut Katik 11/20/06

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The results of the November 17 summit of the leaders of Turkic-speaking nations exceeded the expectations of many diplomats and political analysts. The presidents of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Turkey took the first steps toward the creation of a Turkic commonwealth, giving an enthusiastic endorsement to efforts aimed at strengthening energy and security ties.

The four leaders, along with Turkmenistans envoy to Turkey, gathered at the Turkish Mediterranean resort city of Antalya for the summit, the eighth such gathering of its kind, but the first held in five years. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Officials from Uzbekistan, who had been slated to attend, ended up boycotting the event due to a breakdown in relations with Turkey.

The participants signed a declaration committing the Turkic states to strengthen economic and transport ties, while stressing "the importance of the joint fight against terrorism, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, drug smuggling, weapons smuggling, human smuggling and other organize crimes." The statement also endorsed the concepts of Turkeys accession to the European Union, and a peace settlement to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict that leaves the territory under Azerbaijans control.

"We declare that we support peaceful solution to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict in accordance with the principle of territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, and that we will further support fraternal Azerbaijan in this dispute," Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer said. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

The four leaders underlined both the "increasing importance of the Caspian Basin for the energy security of Europe" and the "strategic importance of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan [BTC] oil pipeline opening and the [expected] completion of the Baku-Tbilisi-Erzurum [BTE] natural gas pipeline." They also stressed the importance of the possible addition of trans-Caspian transportation routes to both the BTC and the BTE. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Sezer stressed in his opening speech the importance of involving energy-rich Turkmenistan in the summit process, and vowed that Ankara would work to facilitate energy exports from the Caspian Basin to Europe via Turkey. Turkic leaders underlined in the Antalya declaration that "increasing energy cooperation would positively and directly contribute to economic and political stability" in Eurasia.

Kazakshtani President Nursultan Nazarbayev took observers, and even many participants, by surprise by proposing the creation of a Turkic parliamentary assembly. Nazarbayev went on to nominate former Turkish president and prime minister Suleyman Demirel to serve as the proposed assemblys first chairman.

Nazarbayevs proposal was indicative of his interest in exploring the feasibility of a full-blown Turkic commonwealth. "We have to discuss it," Kazakshtani Foreign Minister Foreign Minister Kasymzhomart Tokayev told EurasiaNet, referring to the commonwealth possibility.

It would appear that Nazarbayev, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Kyrgyzstani leader Kurmanbek Bakiyev now see closer cooperation as a way to leverage the collective influence of "200 million Turks," as Nazarbayev put it, in pursit of specific policy aims.

"The problem of one Turkic speaking nation must be the problem of other Turkic speaking nations," the Anatolia news agency quoted Aliyev as saying. Observers interpreted his comments as meaning Turkic states should collectively push for results in Turkeys EU accession process and Azerbaijans Karabakh peace talks that are satisfactory to Ankara and Baku respectively.

If the Turkic states actually opted to coordinate diplomatic action, they might have the collective muscle to alter the existing equilibrium in many geopolitical matters. In the case of Turkeys troubled drive to join the EU, for example, a Turkic commonwealth could influence Brussels decision-making calculus by playing the energy card, letting it be known that a rebuff of Ankara could hinder the EUs access to Central Asian energy supplies.

Kyrgyzstani diplomats also stressed that closer cooperation would enhance Bishkeks international profile. Kanat Tursunkulov, a top Kyrgyz Foreign Ministry official, said President Bakiyevs attendance at the summit, despite the "recent troubles" in Bishkek, underscored the Kyrgyz governments position that closer cooperation among Turkic states is a top political priority. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

Commenting on the outcome of the summit, a top Turkish diplomat said, "The era of romantic embracing has ended; the era of concrete cooperation has started." Nazarbayev, Aliyev and Bakiyev all quietly expressed a desire for their respective countries to host to the next Turkic summit. At the same time, participants emphasized a need to proceed cautiously, seeking to dispel any impression that they are rushing toward institutionalizing the group.

Beyond the steps toward closer cooperation, the Turkic summit will be remembered for the public airing of a diplomatic feud between Turkey and Uzbekistan. Some news reports claimed that Uzbek officials stayed away from the gathering to protest the final declarations wording on the Karabakh settlement. However, a senior Turkish official said the reason for Tashkents displeasure was Turkeys decision to join the United States in supporting a draft measure in UN General Assemblys Human Rights Council that would condemn human rights violations in Uzbekistan.

The official was outspoken in his criticism of both Uzbekistans rights behavior and Tashkents reaction to Ankaras vote. "It is time that some countries learned that democracy and human rights are essential to integrate into the global system," he said. "Turkey will persistently work to promote democracy and human rights for the region`s own benefit."

Turkeys decision to vote for the draft Human Rights Council resolution was "a reflection of our ideals and understanding of the importance of democracy and respect for human rights," the official continued. "Turkey has been criticized for similar reasons [human rights violations] in the past, but we never turned it into a bilateral issue, and chose to make improvemenst in our [democracy and human right] records instead."

Such blunt talk would appear to mark a significant shift in Turkish policy, as Turkish officials had unitl now avoided open criticism of Uzbek government action. It may be that Turkeys desire to meet EU accession criteria, especially the need to bolster its human rights credentials, is playing a role in the adoption of a toughter line toward Tashkent. The official also indicated that Ankara is growing tired of Uzbek President Islam Karimovs demands. "They [Uzbek officials] also accuse us of supporting the Uzbek opposition, citing [the fact that] opposition leader Mohammad Solih freely travels to and lives in Turkey. Mr. Solih is free to travel anywhere he wants to go, and travels to Norway, Britain and the United States. Why is Turkey being singled out?" the official said.

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav112006.shtml

 
 
 
Why would you give the source which only support my point ? This article talks about the summit of  Turkic-speaking nations  and not about "the different representatives of one great Turk nation".
 
I have never denied that there is a number of Turkic-speaking nations. It has actually been my point from the very beginning. I just deny the fantastic theory about the existence of one giant "Turk Nation" which you guys are desperately trying to prove.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Aug-2007 at 19:19
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:19
Sarmat
 dont know with what your mind is filled with. This is what Bulldog's "
Yeah. It's Mr. Pope says not Mr. Nazarbaev. Moreover, now I doubt Mr.Pope's competence in Turkic studies, since it's for sure that Kazakhs didn't send any armies to conquer Turkey 500 years ago.
 
Hugh Pope has travelled and lived in the Turkic world over 25 years, he is more of an objective expert than anybody here, he actually has seen, spoken with the locals, administrators, leaders and met them.
 
Also stop trying to manipulate what is written. He says "500 years, a thousand years ago", which is historically accurate, Turks have been continuosly migrating from Central Asia to todays Turkey.
 
Read the book, before trying to judge it.
 
 
Sons of the Conquerors: The Rise of the Turkic World (Hardcover)
by Hugh Pope
 
 
 
I'll find you the page number.
 
There you will see what he's writting about, you can't comment on books you havn't even read, to do so is nothing short of ignorance.
 
 
 
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:21
Originally posted by Bulldog

Central Asia: Turkey Lifts Visa Requirement For Post-Soviet States

These are merely diplomatic relationships. So if Turkey joins EU by 2100, will that make European nations 'Turkish' too?

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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:31

You already showed, that you can't find any sources to support yourself. You actually give the sources which only support my point about the different "Turkic speaking nations."

In the XVth century Kazakh nation already existed and they didn't send any armies to conquer Turkey.
 
The last onslaught from the Central Asia to Anatolia was performed by Tamerlan and it was in the 14th century.
 
Or you don't agree with that?
 
In fact even 1000 years ago there were already differences between the ancestors of modern Kazakhs and Turks. Turks originate from Oguz tribes, while Kazakhs originate mainly from Kypchaks.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Aug-2007 at 19:36
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:32
Feanor
You could trace the origin of Turks in pre - historic times as well.
 
What is this mental block you have.
 
Why is it hard to understand.
 
Turks are from Central Asia.
Turks conquered the Near East and Anatolia.
Turks continuosly migrated to the Near East and Anatolia.
Turks ruled, mixed with the locals and through time Turkified these areas.
 
This is why there are Turks in Turkey, this is basic historical knowledge. Turkey recieved its name from the early crusaders and europeans around 800 years ago.
Turchia, land of the Turks.
 
 
 
Sarmat
Why would you give the sources which only support my point ? This article talks about the summit of  Turkic-speaking nations  and not about "the different representatives of one great Turk nation".
 
They are part of the Turk peoples which are building stronger relations together and using their heritage as a factor to persue economic, pollitical and strategic partnerships which could be in their interests.
 
Sarmat
I have never denied that there is a number of Turkic-speaking nations. It has actually been my point from the very beginning. I just deny the fantastic theory about the existence of one giant "Turk Nation" which you guys are desperately trying to prove.
 
Turkiston, Eastern Turkiston, I guess Turks from Turkey gave these names huh...
 
It doesn't matter what you or I think, you may like to believe that Turks are totally alien to each other and are Turks and Turkic speaking merely by coincidence, I on the other hand feel that as Turks originate in Central Asia and spread from their ultimately they are members of the Turk nation.
 
What matters is what the official viewpoint is of the Turkic states.
Azerbaycan, Kazakistan, Turkey and Turkmenistan official viewpoint is that they are different countries but from the same broader nation. They are developing their ties and moving closer together.
 
However, if they all become enemies and fight each other then they will stress their differences.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 07-Aug-2007 at 19:34
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:41
Originally posted by Bulldog

 
What matters is what the official viewpoint is of the Turkic states.
Azerbaycan, Kazakistan, Turkey and Turkmenistan official viewpoint is that they are different countries but from the same broader nation. They are developing their ties and moving closer together.
  
 
It's only YOUR point. Give at least one reference to the official government site of one Turkic speaking nation which says that they consider themselves "the same broader nation" with the other Turkic nations. "the same broader nation" comes from the realm of your dreams. Even Turkish articles you cited write about a number of "Turkic speaking Nations" and nothing about the fantastic "one broader nation".
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 19:55
Sarmat
 Give at least one reference to the official government site of one Turkic speaking nation which says that they consider themselves "the same broader nation" with the other Turkic nations.
 
"İki Dvlet, Bir Millet"
 
Haydar Aliyev - regarding Azerbaycan and Turkey, "two countries, one nation". This has become a very famous phrase, it shows the level of closeness today between the two countries, the leaders of the state use such language.
 
 
Men şu gnki Trkmenistan bilen Trkie iki dwlet, bir millet diip yglan etdim. Sebbi Oguz dimek trkmen dimekdir, Oguz dili trkmen dilidir, seljuk dili trkmen dilidir, osman dili trkmen dilidir, trk dili biraz tgn trkmen dilidir, dinimiz birdir, adbimiz birdir, ganymyz birdir. Biz trkmenler oňa guwanarys. Trk doganlarymyza-da şony arzuw edris.
Turkmenbashi - (Ruhnama)
 
Turkey and Turkmenistan are two countries, one nation. The reason for this is because Oghuz at the same time means Turkmen. The Oghuz language is the Turkmens language, the language of the Seljuks is the language of the Turkmens, the language of the Ottomans is the language of the Turkmens, the Turkish language is the Turkmen language with some variations, our religion is one, our culture is one, our blood is one. This is our pledge to our Turkish brothers and its what we expect from them aswell.
 
 
"I'm a Turk"
"Iki dovlet bir millet"
 
Nursultan Nazarbayev
 
 
The Turkic states are moving closer together, if they use their common Turk bond and heritage as a factor of this then there is nothing you or I can do about it apart from respecting their views. Be this a common Turk nation or peoples or Turkic nation or peoples, there is a bond and if it is in the interests of Turkic states they will build upon this as is happening today.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 07-Aug-2007 at 20:01
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:01

Well, not very convincing given that you wrote it by yourself without giving any reference and even included the "words of Nazarbaev" which actually are the words of Mr. Popp.

 

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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:13
What have you got against Hugh Pope? he knows far more about the Turkic world than yourself or anybody else here.
 
Read the book, it clearly writes it.
 
Here read what President Nursultan Nazarbayev says...
 
 
Kazakshtani President Nursultan Nazarbayev took observers, and even many participants, by surprise by proposing the creation of a Turkic parliamentary assembly. Nazarbayev went on to nominate former Turkish president and prime minister Suleyman Demirel to serve as the proposed assemblys first chairman.

Nazarbayevs proposal was indicative of his interest in exploring the feasibility of a full-blown Turkic commonwealth. "We have to discuss it," Kazakshtani Foreign Minister Foreign Minister Kasymzhomart Tokayev told EurasiaNet, referring to the commonwealth possibility.


It would appear that Nazarbayev, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Kyrgyzstani leader Kurmanbek Bakiyev now see closer cooperation as a way to leverage the collective influence of "200 million Turks," as Nazarbayev put it, in pursit of specific policy aims.
 
Who are these Turks?
 
 
Oh and if you still are finding this hard to accept then here...
 
 
For instance, when I asked [President of Kazakhstan] Nursultan Nazarbayev, sitting in his $18 million Boeing, "Who are you," the first thing he said was, "I am a Turk," which surprised me.
 
 
 
It is very logical, Turks are from Central Asia originally.


Edited by Bulldog - 07-Aug-2007 at 20:16
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:15
Originally posted by Bulldog

Turks are from Central Asia.
Turks conquered the Near East and Anatolia.
Turks continuosly migrated to the Near East and Anatolia.
Turks ruled, mixed with the locals and through time Turkified these areas.

Turkish nation didn't exist back in those times. Period.

Originally posted by Bulldog

"İki Dvlet, Bir Millet"

Again, a totally romantic statement. You should explain why are Anatolian Turks and other Turkic people parts of one nation referring to sociology.

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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:18
Feanor
Turkish nation didn't exist back in those times. Period.
 
 
A sample of Gokturk Inscriptions, commissioned by Gokturk Khans. One of several in Mongolia, near river Orkhun, dated 732-735. Example statement (from Bilge Khan): "He (Sky God or "Gok Tanri") is the one who sat me on the throne so that the name of the Turkish Nation would live forever."
 
 
You were saying...
 


Edited by Bulldog - 07-Aug-2007 at 20:19
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  Quote omergun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:27
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by omergun

Dont let me laugh dude. I want to ask you something, if Trkish nation is based on Ottoman identity, then on what is Ottoman Identity based on? More questions=> How and when did Ottoman Empire appear, who is Osman Bey and what is his Origin, who are Oguz Trks and were did they come from and whos descendents are they of, how was the situation of Trks in Ottoman Period in Anadolu(Anatolia), do you know the meaning beyliks and what they count for? Ottoman Beyligi was a state of the earlier Trk Selcuk Empire. In Anatolia the Beyliks were like states. A Beylik gets his name of the famillies/tribes who settled in that state, just like the name Trks were the main population in all these Beyliks.

You could trace the origin of Turks in pre - historic times as well. I'm sure Turkic people will be happy to be ruled by Great T-Rex Khan. Sorry, but I have no time for this nonsensical gibberish. The concept of nation is a few century old and 'Turkish nation' was formulated by people who were inspired by Western ideas. Mustafa Kemal, the creator of Turkish nation, attempted to assimilate Muslims into Turks and arguably just renamed the Ottoman identity.



Look, if you and others dont have much information about Trks, pls dont act like you know better, because you dont and because i dont do the same thing in other subjects

MUSTAFA KEMAL ATAT
RK didnt attempt to assimilate Muslims into Trks. He had the power, greatness, identity, character and charisma to gather all(not all because some stayed in other regions)  Trks from old lost Osmanlı Empire to get a victory whom is called The Trk War Of Independent. He arrised The Trk Identity whom was lost and forgotton by the last Osmanlı Sultan and Government. While the Sultan and Government were searching ways of leaving the country and accepting everything the enemies said for the sake of theirselves, and while the so called fake Muslims, likely the Arabs and others, sold old Osmanlı Empire to the British and their allies, by choosing their side but not the side of The Muslim Trks, 
MUSTAFA KEMAL ATAT
RK gathered all Trks of Trk Origin! around and made The Trkiye of today. His motive was building a Trk Republic, and seperating religion from politics, because people always used Islam to get in a high position, just like Erdogan is doing nowadays. Saying he assimilated Muslims into Trks is ridiculous, because being Muslim is not a race but a religion. ATATRK didnt change our Religion, Trks always stayed Muslim.



Edited by omergun - 07-Aug-2007 at 20:58
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:41
Originally posted by Bulldog

What have you got against Hugh Pope? he knows far more about the Turkic world than yourself or anybody else here.
 
Read the book, it clearly writes it.
 
Here read what President Nursultan Nazarbayev says...
 
 
Kazakshtani President Nursultan Nazarbayev took observers, and even many participants, by surprise by proposing the creation of a Turkic parliamentary assembly. Nazarbayev went on to nominate former Turkish president and prime minister Suleyman Demirel to serve as the proposed assemblys first chairman.

Nazarbayevs proposal was indicative of his interest in exploring the feasibility of a full-blown Turkic commonwealth. "We have to discuss it," Kazakshtani Foreign Minister Foreign Minister Kasymzhomart Tokayev told EurasiaNet, referring to the commonwealth possibility.


It would appear that Nazarbayev, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Kyrgyzstani leader Kurmanbek Bakiyev now see closer cooperation as a way to leverage the collective influence of "200 million Turks," as Nazarbayev put it, in pursit of specific policy aims.
 
Who are these Turks?
 
 
Oh and if you still are finding this hard to accept then here...
 
 
For instance, when I asked [President of Kazakhstan] Nursultan Nazarbayev, sitting in his $18 million Boeing, "Who are you," the first thing he said was, "I am a Turk," which surprised me.
 
 
 
It is very logical, Turks are from Central Asia originally.
 
Yeah again. There is nothing in the idea of Turkic commonwealth that would suggest that Turkic speaking people are one nation. There is a British commonwealth. So what? Nations which are present there are not the same, except that they use English language.
 
Concerning the Popp's link you posed. Even he writes that Nazarbaev didn't mean "Turk" as having anything to do with modern Turkey. You just deleted the main contents of the paragrpaph to fit the idea you like.
 
Here is what Pope writes about Nazarbaev and "Turks":
 
The idea of being Turkish is debated. For instance, when I asked [President of Kazakhstan] Nursultan Nazarbayev, sitting in his $18 million Boeing, "Who are you," the first thing he said was, "I am a Turk," which surprised me.

I said, "What do you mean by that?"

He said, "I don't mean anything to do with Turkey. Those people in Turkey are half-breeds. They are the descendants, mixed with the people who are already there. We conquered them. They intermarried, and they formed Turkey. We are the pure Turks."
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  Quote omergun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:44
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Well, not very convincing given that you wrote it by yourself without giving any reference and even included the "words of Nazarbaev" which actually are the words of Mr. Popp.

 



I think this is the last drop of crap, admins if you are warning me for respect, then i dont understand what this is. He asks Bulldog for one reference, he gives even more, and after this he says it isnt convincing, i cant believe this!!!
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 20:51
You probably don't understand what a valid reference means, my friend.
 
I need a link to an official site or publication.
 
Otherwise I would make a "reference" like this.
 
Nazarbaev: "The idea that Kazakhs have any relation to Turks is idiotic"
 
Does it look convincing for you without any references to the web pages or publications ?
 
It does not look for me. You better calm down before attacking me.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Aug-2007 at 20:52
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 21:12
Originally posted by Bulldog

You were saying...

Nation is a modern concept.

Originally posted by Bulldog

Saying he assimilated Muslims into Trks is ridiculous, because being Muslim is not a race but a religion.

I was referring to non - Turkish Muslim people, mainly Kurds.

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  Quote omergun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 21:19
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by Bulldog

You were saying...

Nation is a modern concept.

Originally posted by Bulldog

Saying he assimilated Muslims into Trks is ridiculous, because being Muslim is not a race but a religion.

I was referring to non - Turkish Muslim people, mainly Kurds.



Kurds are one part of the ethnic groups who are in minority
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