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16th Turkish General Election, 2007

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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 16th Turkish General Election, 2007
    Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 13:36
Originally posted by Seko

Can anyone really stand to look at Kasimpasali Erdogan on TV anymore?

Deniz Baykal is equally irritating. Devlet Bahceli is even more.

Originally posted by Mortaza

When It comes to better of evil, It is idea of Feanor. He is right acording to his ideas. He is a leftist and of course a rightist party only can be better of evil.

It's not just me and my fellow leftists, as Beylerbeyi said, we don't vote for AKP.

Relatively apolitical common people (Workers & Farmers) are unhappy with AKP, yet they still vote for it. We can only conclude that CHP is simply terrible.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Or maybe a new left wing party is needed.

IP is worse than CHP & DSP in terms of leftism. TKP seems to be on the path of IP. ODP is OK. I don't know a thing about EMEP.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 13:52
Relatively apolitical common people (Workers & Farmers) are unhappy with AKP, yet they still vote for it. We can only conclude that CHP is simply terrible.
 
Have any statistic? or do you have contact with farmers? why do you think AKP got much vote at southeastern and eastern Turkey? Because most of them are farmers? You are repeating only same words without knowing Its meaning..
 
do you know price of wheat or mercime? do you know how much money AKP give to farmers for their lands?
 
 
We cannot have a perfect party(human is not perfect), but AKP increased her vote almost 14% at goverment. This is best at Turkey.(Maybe you want to say, AKP is better evil compared with all goverments in Turkey?)
 
So you cannot say, She is only better of evil. At least for common people.

Also, lets not forget. CHP is not only party in Turkey.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 14:00
I was a little hard. I am sorry, but I dislike that approach.
 
Everyone talk about how economy of farmers becomed bad, how workers are suffering, how people are bad.
 
It is boring to hear always  same argument which has no relation with reality.
 
Number of economy totally say different. It say, Economy is growing under AKP rule. It also say, wealth distribution in Turkey is becoming better at AKP rule. So This zavallı literature dont work..
 
If number of economy is not enough for you. Look at number of politics.
 
AKP gain election in Turkey. AKP vote increased all Turkey.AKP did not lost vote even in one city. AKP got more vote both from workers and farmers.(Be sure, Success at eastern and southern- east Turkey totally have relation with farmers)
 
I think that is problem of left in Turkey. They think they know better, They think they can do better. They think they are better of standart people.
 
But until now, They did nothing. They couldnt even built a leftist party. Forget to rule Turkey..
 
I think It is time to wake for left.. Wake up and do something. That elitist approach wont help you.(and us) To accuse did not help Kemalists, It wont help you too.
 
 
By the way, Beylerbeyi, I dont think you can build a powerful leftist party from CHP remains. Most of CHP voter is not infact leftists. Only small part of them are leftist..
 
If you want to build a powerful left, You should seek vote of AKP and DTP supporters.. They are the people who need left, not elits and richs of CHP.
 
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 23-Jul-2007 at 14:06
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 14:39
Originally posted by Mortaza

I am sorry, but I dislike that approach.

And I dislike your partisan attitude.

Originally posted by Mortaza

Have any statistic? or do you have contact with farmers?

You don't remember the outburst of hazelnut growers?

Originally posted by Mortaza

do you know how much money AKP give to farmers for their lands?

When? Bribing people before the election is hardly a thing to be proud of.

Originally posted by Mortaza

Maybe you want to say, AKP is better evil compared with all goverments in Turkey?

Not exactly, but I see your point.

Originally posted by Mortaza

It say, Economy is growing under AKP rule. It also say, wealth distribution in Turkey is becoming better at AKP rule.

I don't really care about the former, and I demand proof for the latter.

Originally posted by Mortaza

Also, lets not forget. CHP is not only party in Turkey.

How many parties have a realistic chance of winning the election?

Originally posted by Mortaza

But until now, They did nothing. They couldnt even built a leftist party. Forget to rule Turkey..

Ruling Turkey is not a matter of AKP or CHP, but TUSIAD, IMF etc.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 15:03
And I dislike your partisan attitude.
accusation?
 
You don't remember the outburst of hazelnut growers?
do you want to learn what they did at elections when all other parties than AKP are offering them good price for their products?
 
Yeah AKP increased their vote 10-20 at that cities..
 
And lets not forget, Prime guilty of criss. FİSKO BİRLİK.
 
When? Bribing people before the election is hardly a thing to be proud of.
Pardon me? When did service called as bribe? AKP is helping poor at last four year. I wish CHP bribe people too..
 
Maybe AKP should stop to bribe poor people with help...
 
I don't really care about the former, and I demand proof for the latter.
 
do you know what is gini number?
 
Gini katsayısı: Kişisel gelir dağılımını lmek iin ok sayıda gelir dağılımı lt bulunmaktadır. Bu llerden Gini katsayısı, dağılım ls olarak en ok kullanılan ldr. Ayrıca bu katsayı, Lorenz eğrisine bağlı olup eğri ile kşegen arasında kalan alanın, kşegenin altında kalan toplam alan oranına eşittir. Bu oran bydke dağılımdaki eşitsizlik artıyor demektir. Bir toplumda, gelir adaletli olarak paylaşılmışsa Gini katsayısı "0" 'a eşit, toplumdaki gelirleri yalnız bir kişi almışsa Gini katsayısı "1" 'e eşit olmaktadır.
 
Gini number at 2002 : 0.44
Gini number at 2003 : 0.42
Gini number at 2004 : 0.40
Gini number at 2005 : 0.38
 
You can find these numbers, If you make a quick search at internet..
 
If I am not wrong, GİNİ number at EU should be between 30-35.
 
I also remember Babacan talk about gini number, He said gini number will continue to decrease at 2006
 
How many parties have a realistic chance of winning the election?
 
If you are not happy with a party, You will not choose her because She have a realistic chance of winning the election..
 
 
Ruling Turkey is not a matter of AKP or CHP, but TUSIAD, IMF etc.
 
Wrong. IMF is effective because we own her money. Debt is not because of AKP and AKP is decreasing that debt.. We are becoming less independent to IMF.
 
When It comes to TUSİAD, It is hostage of AKP(Or I should say success.)If an ekonomic criss happen, TUSİAD is the one which would be harmed..
 
 


 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 23-Jul-2007 at 15:09
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 16:14
Originally posted by Mortaza

do you want to learn what they did at elections? Yeah AKP increased their vote 10-20 at that cities..

Mortaza, it seems you don't read my posts at all. That's OK, I can repeat it for you:

'I am content with the current situation, because many people who did vote for it, do not really like AKP, but see it as a lesser evil when compared to fascist - militarist pseudoleftist coalition.'

Originally posted by Mortaza

Gini number at 2002 : 0.44
Gini number at 2003 : 0.42
Gini number at 2004 : 0.40
Gini number at 2005 : 0.38

You forgot to mention your source.

Originally posted by Mortaza

Debt is not because of AKP and AKP is decreasing that debt..

Again, this statement needs a source.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 16:52
You forgot to mention your source.
 
DİE. (It changed its name to TUİK)
 
 
Again, this statement needs a source.
 
It is a common knowledge about Turkish economics.. I think you protected yourself from AKP propaganda much. :)
 
 
The table at the end of page can help you about our dept to IMF. I think, now our debt decreased to 8.000.000.000.
 
 
Mortaza, it seems you don't read my posts at all. That's OK, I can repeat it for you:

'I am content with the current situation, because many people who did vote for it, do not really like AKP, but see it as a lesser evil when compared to fascist - militarist pseudoleftist coalition.'

 
 
That is what I write before about your words. "When It comes to better of evil, It is idea of Feanor. He is right acording to his ideas.  He is a leftist and of course a rightist party only can be better of evil."
 
 
I am not against this. As I said before, You are leftist so a rightist party cannot become more than a lesser evil.
 
But just dont expand your ideas to workers or farmers.. Both economic growth and increase at gini number, helped them much. And lets not forget four years bribe which AKP give for poor people. 
 
So most successful goverment of Turkey(Acording to vote increase) should be a little more than lesser of evil..
 


Edited by Mortaza - 23-Jul-2007 at 16:55
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 17:00
Congratulations to AKP.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 17:37
Have any statistic? or do you have contact with farmers? why do you think AKP got much vote at southeastern and eastern Turkey? Because most of them are farmers? You are repeating only same words without knowing Its meaning..
 
Feanor is right, there was discontent among farmers due to AKP policies.
 
Number of economy totally say different. It say, Economy is growing under AKP rule. It also say, wealth distribution in Turkey is becoming better at AKP rule. So This zavallı literature dont work..
 
In fact, AKP just continued the reforms of Kemal Dervis. The GINI index got better because Turkey is recovering from the worst economic crisis since world war two. This is also true for most of the growth of the economy.
 
Little of this is because of AKP magic politics. Any party would have followed the Dervis-IMF plan and given the favourable international finance situation, any stable government would have attracted foreign investment. AKP was lucky because it was one-party so it was stable. And they were good in not fighting much with the military, they avoided triggerring political crises.
 
The previous gov were idiots, especially MHP. First they created a political crisis for no reason (also special thanks to the imbecile president) which turned to the worst economic crisis since the world war, and just when the economy started to recover, they (moron called Bahceli) insisted on early polls. Ecevit and Yilmaz begged him not to do it, but he did anyway, and destroyed all the parties except CHP and AKP. 
 
God is definitely on AKP's side by giving them stupid enemies such as Bahceli, Ecevit (he was actually just old), Sezer, Buyukanit...
 
AKP gain election in Turkey. AKP vote increased all Turkey.AKP did not lost vote even in one city. AKP got more vote both from workers and farmers.(Be sure, Success at eastern and southern- east Turkey totally have relation with farmers)
 
Before the election Konda predicted the AKP's vote correctly. If you look at Konda's previous polls, you see that AKP's votes jumped from 30- something percent to 54 percent after the presidency crisis and the threat of the military. They later got down to 47 percent.
 
Without the military and the presidency crisis AKP was likely to remain below 40%. Still successful, by Turkish standards, but no need to be over-enthusiastic.
 
But until now, They did nothing. They couldnt even built a leftist party. Forget to rule Turkey..
 
Turkish left was destroyed in 1980. Before 1980, it was a different story.
 
By the way, Beylerbeyi, I dont think you can build a powerful leftist party from CHP remains. Most of CHP voter is not infact leftists. Only small part of them are leftist..
 
As I wrote, there are still real leftists in CHP, who should join the real leftist parties.
 
If you want to build a powerful left, You should seek vote of AKP and DTP supporters.. They are the people who need left, not elits and richs of CHP.
 
Surely. But not all CHP voters are rich. I think in order to start a new leftist movement, first CHP has to be exposed as a nationalist party, so that all left-wing people will abandon it. If a 5-10% leftist base can be saved from the CHP (and from the democrats who vote for AKP), a real leftist party can be created.
 
I think this 5-10% 'critical mass' is needed to start a powerful leftist parliamentary movement, which will then attract the votes of the 20-30% poor people who vote for anyone in whom they see hope.
 
The leftist movement will be against IMF politics and should work for a peaceful solution to the Kurdish problem. Such a party will naturally get a lot of votes from the people who now have nowhere to vote.
 
The point is, such parties, like TKP and ODP, already exist, but they are too alien for the people, and the people won't vote for them as long as they get 0.2% of the vote, anyway. People just won't vote for a party which gets 0.2% of the vote where a barrier of 10% exists. Most people need to believe that a party can succeed before they vote for them. This is why a critical mass is needed.
 
Of course, this is just about parliamentary movements. Many on the radical left think that there is nothing to be won by sending people to the parliament, which is ultimately controlled by the capital.


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 23-Jul-2007 at 17:41
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 17:50
I think Erdogan should pay Baykal to stay as leader of CHP LOL as long as he remains there will be no credible opposition unless MHP carry on growing and improving their image.
 
Turkey, the next Iran? Tongue
 
Beylerbeyi
The leftist movement will be against IMF politics and should work for a peaceful solution to the Kurdish problem.
 
Why doesn't Turkey just give some federal land to Kurds?
There will never be an end to the Kurdish problem as long as Turkey exists, from a Kurds perspective why shouldn't they want self-rule, what is the incentive not to?
 
How would a Leftist movement deal with Kurds?
 
Ofcourse aslong as the Turkish army exists there will never be any Kurdish land in Turkey.
 
 
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 17:55
Originally posted by Mortaza

AKP is decreasing that debt..

The debt is increasing. Not even AKP denies that, but they argue that the ability to pay debt increases even more due to the economical expansion.

Originally posted by Mortaza

You are leftist.. But just dont expand your ideas to workers or farmers..

I thought you knew that socialism is nothing, but to defend labour against capital.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:04
Feanor is right, there was discontent among farmers due to AKP policies.
 
Beylerbeyi, how can you explaing AKP increased his vote most at farmer communities of eastern and southeastern Turkey..(And protected his vote against MHP at central anatolia)
 
As I said you, how many contact do you have with farmers? I know, They are taking good money from goverment and specially at this year, Their product made great money.(Partly reason of bad product at middle anatolia)
 
Even middle anatolia is happy with AKP politics, because of money goverment give(Infact It is not goverment giving but world bank but older goverments took that money to themself). And goverment postpone farmers debt one year without interests.(Because of bad production again)
 
Again goverment give good price for hazelnut.
 
 
Lets not forget, AKP projects about village. Koydeş project.
 
So I cannot see any proof about bad situation of farmers or discontent between farmers..
 
Maybe, You should show some proof about this..
 
 
Little of this is because of AKP magic politics.
 
Economy have not magic politics but You are forgetting success at export.(I think we talked about source of imports).. I was at Gaziantep, It is interesting almost every exporters have pictures with Kurşat Tzmen.
 
Any party would have followed the Dervis-IMF plan and given the favourable international finance situation, any stable government would have attracted foreign investment.
 
Yeah, If just these parties dont afraid from globalisation. Should I remind you literature common about "selling Turkey." Every parties except AKP are talking about selling country. So, Not all parties will attract foreign investment. Infact I am sure, They will use KİTs as their arpalık..Like they always did before..
 
 
You are giving to much important to others and You totally ignore goverment job.
 
 
God is definitely on AKP's side by giving them stupid enemies such as Bahceli, Ecevit (he was actually just old), Sezer, Buyukanit...
 
Now, I agree with you.. AKP realy have weak enemies but this should not shadow success of AKP. Growth rate of economy and Its continuesness is one of best in history of Turkey.
 
Before the election Konda predicted the AKP's vote correctly. If you look at Konda's previous polls, you see that AKP's votes jumped from 30- something percent to 54 percent after the presidency crisis and the threat of the military. They later got down to 47 percent.
 
Konda, not always guessed AKP vote correctly. Just dont forget, Its failure at municipality election.
 
I think AKP increased her vote with her hard works.. or do you think, AKP hard work did not change anything. (They worked harder than their enemies.)
 
But I agree with you, presidency crisis increased his vote 4-5%. but as you said, 40% is still a big success. It still mean, People supported AKP economic policy and see success of AKP at economy.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:15
The debt is increasing. Not even AKP denies that, but they argue that the ability to pay debt increases even more due to the economical expansion
 
we were talking about IMF debt and rule of IMF..not total debt.
 
 thought you knew that socialism is nothing, but to defend labour against capital.
Yeah. You are right. But this does not mean that labour will defend socialism against capital or will prefer socialism to capitalism... Otherwise, We would have a left in Turkey.
 
I think Erdogan should pay Baykal to stay as leader of CHP LOL as long as he remains there will be no credible opposition unless MHP carry on growing and improving their image.
 
Erdogan is realy a lucky guy. Bahceli(leader of MHP) is also a failure. With him, MHP cannot become an alternative to AKP..
 
I found it funny when Erdogan said, we are aiming to become goverment until 2023.. It looks like He was hoping this success from Baykal and Bahceli..LOL
 
Ofcourse aslong as the Turkish army exists there will never be any Kurdish land in Turkey.
 
No need to be cocy. We had everytime a Turkish army, but we lost greece, bulgaria, arabic countries and a lot other lands.
 
This is a history forum not a tale forum like unvincible army..
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:49
Mortaza
Erdogan is realy a lucky guy. Bahceli(leader of MHP) is also a failure. With him, MHP cannot become an alternative to AKP..
 
I dunno, they doubled their votes, due to CHP failing they don't have to form an alliance with them, if it carries on like this it would be naive to believe they won't carry on gaining momentum.
 
Mortaza
I found it funny when Erdogan said, we are aiming to become goverment until 2023
 
Highly unlikely, its a matter of time before there are big scandals, acts of corruption and mis-management, after all were talking about pollitcians LOL
 
Mortaza
No need to be cocy. We had everytime a Turkish army, but we lost greece, bulgaria, arabic countries and a lot other lands.
 
I'm not being cockey, just realistic.
 
The Ottoman Turkish army lost the Balkan lands due to the Russian wars, it was fighting against an army and powerfull state. 
They also pulled out of the Arab lands, retreated to Anatolia due to the wars with the Brittish and French.
 
The Sevres treat was signed.
However, the army fought on, and helped gain re-independance.
 
The same army crushed 16 Kurdish uprisings and will carry on crushing uprisings on her land.
 
As long as the Turkish millitary exists there won't be a Kurdish state in that country, the Kurdish forces cannot defeat them, they don't have sufficient numbers, weaponry, logistics, generals and troops.
 
How would you feel about Kurdish regional autonomy? it would solve the Kurdish problem would it not.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 22:14
Turkey could have, unethically, fixed the Kurdish problem during WW1 or two by simply moving its Kurdish population into the Mosul area and taking in the Turkmen of the area in their stead. At the time little would have been made of it and turkey would have very likely gotten away with it with Europe and Asia embroiled in its own problems.

In terms of autonomy, I think any recognition of Kurdish demands would be harmful for Turkey since it could only bolster separatist dreams and define Kurdish claims more clearly. Autonomy is the first step to statehood.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 23-Jul-2007 at 22:19
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 01:48
Originally posted by Bulldog

How would you feel about Kurdish regional autonomy? it would solve the Kurdish problem would it not.

Are you seriously proposing this? Turkish nationalists cannot even stand the word, Kurd.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 02:53
How would you feel about Kurdish regional autonomy? it would solve the Kurdish problem would it not.
 
 
No, It wont.. Felix is right. It will just increase motivation of kurdish nationalist..
 
 
Suppressiong of Turkish nationalism and creating a country for every ethics would be enough..(Forgeting words like "how happy I am" or "Turkey for Turks" will be beneficiall too..
 
Of course, We should make eastern Turkey more rich too..
 
In reality,If we dont leave our turkishness, We cannot persuade them to leave their kurdishness.. Later, We should give them right to leave Turkey. They should stay inside of Turkey valuenterily.
 
Important point, We should do it step by step.. A quick move can divide country in short term.
 
If we dont change anyting, Turkey will be divided in long term.
 
Sad part, nationalist, kemalist and army are against this. Infact I am sure, They prefer sheria instead of giving kurds their rights..
 
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 07:13

Beylerbeyi, how can you explaing AKP increased his vote most at farmer communities of eastern and southeastern Turkey..(And protected his vote against MHP at central anatolia)

As I wrote before, there is no difference between the economic programs of the parties. Whoever comes to power, will follow Dervis-IMF plan. People know this. So they vote for other issues. Such as the Presidency crisis. Or the Kurdish issues (in the east and south east).

As I said you, how many contact do you have with farmers? I know, They are taking good money from goverment and specially at this year, Their product made great money.(Partly reason of bad product at middle anatolia)

I don't personally know farmers, but I've been reading news of farmer protests. You know 'anani al da git' etc.

Even middle anatolia is happy with AKP politics, because of money goverment give(Infact It is not goverment giving but world bank but older goverments took that money to themself). And goverment postpone farmers debt one year without interests.(Because of bad production again)

Again goverment give good price for hazelnut.

Lets not forget, AKP projects about village. Koydeş project.

So I cannot see any proof about bad situation of farmers or discontent between farmers..

Maybe, You should show some proof about this..

http://www.sol.org.tr/

This is the news site of TKP. They have a lot of critcism about AKP's agriculture politics. Search for 'tarim AKP' and read for yourself.

I won't carry that discussion over here, I don't know much about agriculture. But I know that everything is not perfect. Far from it.

Havign said that though, I am sometimes surprised with the pro-peasant attitude of some Turkish leftists. They are Marxists, but they are complaining about AKP politics destroying the peasant class and turning it into proleteriat...

Economy have not magic politics but You are forgetting success at export.(I think we talked about source of imports).. I was at Gaziantep, It is interesting almost every exporters have pictures with Kurşat Tzmen.

Recently foreign investment figures were released. It turns out that although a lot of foreign investment enters the country, almost all of it leaves the country in form of profits. There is very little that is invested in production.

You say the economy is growing, but real wages in Turkey are still lower than 1998 levels. A lot money is being made in Turkey, by local and foreign capitalists rentier class, but not the people.

The people don't complain, because they remember the unstable governments and horrible economic crisis.

But the main failure of AKP's economic policies is despite the growth (which is mostly recovery anyway), it failed to reduce unemployment. Like Aydemir Guler said in his election speech, there are 5 million children workers in Turkey while we have 15% real unemployment (numbers vary according to sources). AKP, like all other governments, allows this situation, because it is more porfitable for the rich to explot the children while young people are unemployed.

Yeah, If just these parties dont afraid from globalisation. Should I remind you literature common about "selling Turkey." Every parties except AKP are talking about selling country. So, Not all parties will attract foreign investment. Infact I am sure, They will use KİTs as their arpalık..Like they always did before..

I think if CHP was the government they would have done the same as AKP. Even the military sells their own bank to European capital, while barking about AKP being traitors. Now kemalofascists are saying 'AKP is selling the country to the foreigners'. But they also say 'AKP want to implement the sharia law'. These are scare tactics.

At best, they would have sold public enterprises to national capital rather than foreign capital, which is the same thing, ultimately. In any case, selling profitable public enterprises (built by taxes, and belonging to the people) to private capital is not the cause of economic growth under AKP.

As to 'arpaliks', AKP is no less corrupt than other governments.

You are giving to much important to others and You totally ignore goverment job.

In fact, I haven't. I told you AKP handled things well, and avoided confrontation with the military, and such major political crises. They haven't made big mistakes. And they worked hard in organising things at people's level, as you wrote. When Erdogan spoke in a rally, it was translated to sign language immediately for the hearing-impaired. This kind of attention to detail is way beyond the scope of other parties in Turkey.

So compared to their enemies, they are brilliant.

Now, I agree with you.. AKP realy have weak enemies but this should not shadow success of AKP. Growth rate of economy and Its continuesness is one of best in history of Turkey.

Old Ecevit, Sezer, Bahceli, Buyukanit, are just the beginning. Look at other enemies: Baykal, Agar, Kumcu... All dumber than one another. Agar and Kumcu said they will join together and form the DP, but they couldn't manage it. In fact they screwed it up so bad that AKP remained the only party in centre-right, which is the largest vote block in Turkey. Allah herkese boyle rakip nasip eylesin.

And Baykal will never leave CHP, and he will keep licking the boots of military. Will never increase his votes.

MHP can't do anything. They are a party of undertakers (cenaze levazimatcisi) and vultures (akbaba). When PKK kills some troops, they gain votes. But there is limit to that. So when AKP gets too strong, the military sends its people to attack Kurds (like in Semdinli) and PKK responds by killing some troops and MHP gains votes. This allowed them to enter the parliament, and reduce the number of AKP MPs, so it worked well. AKP should have exposed the Semdinli scam, but they were afraid of the military.

Yalniz buradaki kemalistler acayip arazi oldu, dikkat edersen. Korkmayin gencler, gelin bakalim, katilin tartismaya.
 
By the way, read this:
 
See how big a moron Baykal really is, and how he depends on IMF.


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 24-Jul-2007 at 07:30
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 07:39
Originally posted by kotumeyil

AKP is the only party which could stand against the independent candidates supported by DTP, so it's obvious that only majority party that unifies Kurds and Turks is AKP today.

Indeed. Militarist bureaucracy of Ankara doesn't mean anything to Kurds. If Kemalists do not want a ten-times stronger DTP, they should not attempt to stage a coup against AKP. What a dilemma!

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 08:37
As I wrote before, there is no difference between the economic programs of the parties. Whoever comes to power, will follow Dervis-IMF plan. People know this. So they vote for other issues. Such as the Presidency crisis. Or the Kurdish issues (in the east and south east).
 
That is not MHP or CHP saying. Should I remind you their anti-foregein investment approach and their anti-global approachs?
 
Also No need to over value IMF. Our debt to IMF is 8.000.000.000. If I am not wrong, We have 60.000.000.000$ in our central bank..
 
AKP work with IMF because She prefer it and Turkey can find more cheap fund. We can resque ourself from IMF, If we accept price(a little more interest) of it.
 
 I don't personally know farmers, but I've been reading news of farmer protests. You know 'anani al da git' etc.
 
Please "ananı al da git" thing is not even an argument.
 
Now, some realities about farmers..
 
 - İFTİYE İYİ FİYAT, BOR ERTELEMESİ:7 Haziran'da aıklanan hububat alım fiyatları enflasyon oranlarını katladı. Alım fiyatı yzde 13-14 oranlarında artırılan buğdayda destekleme primi tutarları da yzde 29 oranında ykseltildi. Beyaz arpada alım fiyatı yzde 21 arttı. Arpa, avdar ve yulafta ton başına destekleme primi de yzde 40 oranında ykseldi. iftinin rn kota uygulanmadan alındı, rn bedelinin yzde 25'i hemen dendi.
iftiye 2007 iin ngrlen 5.3 milyar YTL'lik Doğrudan Gelir Desteği (DGD) demelerinin tamamı ilk kez yılın ilk yarısında dendi. Kalite fındık iin mdahale alım fiyatı geen yıla gre yzde 29 oranında artırıldı, aylara gre kademeli artış ieren fiyat ilanı yapılarak satış iin acele edilmemesi istendi.
iftiye Ziraat Bankası zerinden verilecek "hibeli seim kredisi" 3 Mayıs'ta Bakanlar Kurulu kararıyla uygulamaya girdi. Karar uyarınca Ziraat Bankası'nın iftiye vereceği krediden kaynaklanacak zararının yzde 60'ını Hazine stlenecek, kalan yzde 40'ı da Tarım Bakanlığı hibe fonundan karşılanacak. iftinin damla ve yağmurlama esaslı sulama sistemi kurmasını hedefleyen bu uygulama dışında kuraklık gerekesiyle 40 ilde ifti borları ertelendi.
 
 
That is a page far from neutral.  A party compete with AKP.
 
Recently foreign investment figures were released. It turns out that although a lot of foreign investment enters the country, almost all of it leaves the country in form of profits. There is very little that is invested in production.
 
I think, You dont see Banks as production?
 
There is short time investmend and long time investmen. It is easy to attract short time investment.(just give more interest) To attract long time investment is important thing.
 
AKP attracted more investment than all Turkish Republic history.
 
You say the economy is growing, but real wages in Turkey are still lower than 1998 levels. A lot money is being made in Turkey, by local and foreign capitalists rentier class, but not the people.
 
Comparing AKP with 1998 is unjust. You should compare it with end of 2002. When AKP began to governt it.
 
Also lets not forget gini number, It says under akp rule, Poors get bigger portion of total wealth in Turkey..(not still enough.)
 
Also, which is our biggest export sector? and how many firm in this sector is turkish? how many workers  work at this sector? Just a hint, It has relation with cars.
 
But the main failure of AKP's economic policies is despite the growth (which is mostly recovery anyway), it failed to reduce unemployment. Like Aydemir Guler said in his election speech, there are 5 million children workers in Turkey while we have 15% real unemployment (numbers vary according to sources). AKP, like all other governments, allows this situation, because it is more porfitable for the rich to explot the children while young people are unemployed.
 
I agree AKP did not show enough success at this.
 
But If we look statistics. Infact under AKP rule, Turkey found a lot job but problem is that people who look for work is increasing(high population growth rate and immigrant to villages to cities) more than newly found jobs.
 
So unemployment rate does not fall..
 
In any case, selling profitable public enterprises (built by taxes, and belonging to the people) to private capital is not the cause of economic growth under AKP.
 
 If you sell this enterprises to inner investment, It wont help you. If you sell it foreign investment, It means direct investment so you can use money you gain from privatization.
 
 Also lets not forget, most of foreign invester comes with buying already built institutions in world.(I think It should be between 70-80% of total foreign investmen)
 
s to 'arpaliks', AKP is no less corrupt than other governments.
 
That is why AKP sell these organizations? and that is why number of workers at state decrease?
 
Old Ecevit, Sezer, Bahceli, Buyukanit, are just the beginning. Look at other enemies: Baykal, Agar, Kumcu... All dumber than one another. Agar and Kumcu said they will join together and form the DP, but they couldn't manage it. In fact they screwed it up so bad that AKP remained the only party in centre-right, which is the largest vote block in Turkey. Allah herkese boyle rakip nasip eylesin.
 
Haha. Well, It is becoming better for Erdogan. Just dont forget Tansu and Mesut. It looks like They are returning back.. Lucky Erdogan..
 
AKP should have exposed the Semdinli scam, but they were afraid of the military.
 
That is the biggest mistake even crime of AKP..
 
Yalniz buradaki kemalistler acayip arazi oldu, dikkat edersen. Korkmayin gencler, gelin bakalim, katilin tartismaya.
 
Bir yıl boyle idare ederler. Sonra gene başlarlar ulkenin 53% size karşı diye. Tabi bu arada DTP adına konustuklarınında farkına varmazlar..
 
 
Indeed. Militarist bureaucracy of Ankara doesn't mean anything to Kurds. If Kemalists do not want a ten-times stronger DTP, they should not attempt to stage a coup against AKP. What a dilemma!
 
I dont think they have so big brain. They will just try to solve all problem with gun.
 
They can even try to solve economic problems with guns. To bad, Money dont listen order of generals..
 
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