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The Aryan Invasion Debate

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bilal_ali_2000 View Drop Down
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Aryan Invasion Debate
    Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 02:38

Aa many of you may have learned from this site that the Aryan Invasion theory of India is under some serious fire. And although i do not believe in the Aryan Invasion theory and do believe that the Aryans emigrated from India to Europe and Asia but i think that idea is need of some concrete solid evidence, the Gundestrup seal is the only one that i can think of, and the fact that the Indo-European Mitanni people had a horse training manual written entirely in almost pure Sanskrit and that they had Indo-Aryan Names for kings and Gods suggesting that they belonged to the Indo-Aryan branch as the traces of Indo-Aryan tribes moving from India as the only evidence for this migration from India. So i think that this matter should now be dealt with caution and students should be told that it is an open debate and right now anyhing regarding the origin of the Aryans is a point of debate and it should be dealt as such rather than just teaching them that the Aryan Invasion of India did happen. Some neutral treaties should be compiled which should present both side of the debate and wherever such a lengthy matter cannot be given full treatment just include that

"Previously it was assumed that the Aryan Invasion Theory was correct, but recently several discoveries have challenged this notion and currently this subject is a matter of scholarly debate."

New light wll be shed on this topic in the light of new perpectives on the currently known facts but most of the hard evidence for this would come form archeology. The Indus script is a key matter in this debate because if reveals an Aryan language then it will completely invalidate the Aryan Invasion Theory if it doesn't then the Aryan Invasion or Aryan Immigratoin theory will be upheld. I have my fingers crossed because hopfully we may find a bilingual text between a known script like the Armaic or bangani script or more likely a cuneform script as the trade between the Indus Valley Civilization and that of Sumer is well attested as several Indus Valley seals have been unearthed in Mesopotamia, after all Cyrus famed cylindercal seal was unearthed in Mesopotamia not in what is current Iran sites. And we may stumble onto a large body of Indus text in the Indus Valley Civilization helping to decipher the Indus script. Anyway we ware in for quite exciting times.

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 11:24
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

i do not believe in the Aryan Invasion theory and do believe that the Aryans emigrated from India to Europe and Asia but i think that idea is need of some concrete solid evidence, the Gundestrup seal is the only one that i can think of.


Do you mean the Gundestrup Cauldron? It's from about 100 BC, about two or three thousand years after Indo-Europeans arrived in the area. I can't see what it has to do with early Indo-Europeans.

The Indus script is a key matter in this debate because if reveals an Aryan language then it will completely invalidate the Aryan Invasion Theory if it doesn't then the Aryan Invasion or Aryan Immigratoin theory will be upheld. I have my fingers crossed because hopfully we may find a bilingual text between a known script like the Armaic or bangani script or more likely a cuneform script as the trade between the Indus Valley Civilization and that of Sumer is well attested


Well, its not likely that translation of the script would reveal the language. It's obviously not a phonetic script but a pictographic script. Pictographic scripts are not language specific. We have our own pictographic symbols, like the ones for washrooms or road signs; it doesn't matter what language you speak, it works in all of them.

Edited by edgewaters - 23-Jul-2007 at 11:31
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bilal_ali_2000 View Drop Down
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 22:41

"Do you mean the Gundestrup Cauldron? It's from about 100 BC, about two or three thousand years after Indo-Europeans arrived in the area. I can't see what it has to do with early Indo-Europeans. "
Well the thing with the invasionist school is that they say that the incoming Aryans hated the local aboriginies and their way of life so much so that the ones they didn't slaughtered they through the caste system prevented themselves from mixing with the locals yet they still despite their hate for the locals and their way of life seemed to borrow a lot from the locals. Whenever there is some new find which actually links Indus Valley Civilization with the Vedic Tradition like the fire altars, the Soma filter, Figures in Yogic postures they say oh the Invading Aryans took them from the local population. However these invasionists end up in hot water when something is discovered in Europe which has links with the Indus Valley Civlization. Gundestrup Cauldron is one with which parallels can be drawn with the Pashupatti seal excavated from Indus Valley. It clearly establishes a connection between Indus Valley and ancient Aryan culture of Europe.

 
 See the resemblance. Could it be explained away so easily?  
 
"its not likely that translation of the script would reveal the language. It's obviously not a phonetic script but a pictographic script. Pictographic scripts are not language specific. We have our own pictographic symbols, like the ones for washrooms or road signs; it doesn't matter what language you speak, it works in all of them."
 
I have heard no scholar make the claim that it is a pictorial writting system.  It is most probably a logosyllabic script. The principal signs are  around 600 which is midway between syllabic (90) and pictorial (2000). so it most probably was logosyllabic. And the signs especially the ones scratched on pottery shreds are just too abstract to be pictorials representations.  No well established civlization has had a completely pictograhic form of writting all of them had a logosyllabic form of writting at least in the developed form. And also sometimes the same symbol is repeated after eachother which indicates its syllabic nature.  I really don't see any reason why would you think that it is pictograophic.   
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  Quote irani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 13:13
i persoanlly think there is no such thing as aryan. The reason i say this is that indians are very different from their neighbours physically. if they were all all aryans, surely they would have atleast some commen physical features.
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  Quote Tiggs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 14:03
Originally posted by irani

i persoanlly think there is no such thing as aryan. The reason i say this is that indians are very different from their neighbours physically. if they were all all aryans, surely they would have atleast some commen physical features.


Post your picture and I will post mine.  I bet I look more european than you. Does that mean I am Aryan. No. being aryan has to do with having 'good character and being noble.....nothing to do with the shape or nose etc. India has a wide variety of 'looks' and  'Iranian type' looks can also be found in India.
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  Quote sleek_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 13:05

edit* bak on topic



Edited by sleek_ - 09-Aug-2007 at 11:25
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 21:42
You don't look aryan if that's what you mean, otherwise you look like a Muslim on steroids.
elenos
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  Quote betaab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 23:34
sleek u look indian man. just well built. you dont look like iranian or afghan at all.
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  Quote sleek_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 01:06

thanks for replies. yeh i kno i dnt look iran or afghan. im from bangladesh.

haha u kno iranians and afgahns here are like ashamed to say their from those countriies.
 
afghans dnt say there from afghanistan they rather say their from lebanon or some other country and iranians never mention iran they just say persian or make up some sh*t like bosnian. seen it happen a lot of times.
 
im in aus btw.
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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 04:52

Simply Indic (sub continent)!

 

Even though most Pakistanis lean toward Arab world the treatment from there is totally reverse.

 

A very recent survey conduct by BBC in UK again clearly points that most (more than 50%) of south Asians (pakis included) dont feel Britain, as the native people doesnt treat them in that way. To the most, Indian, pakis, Bangladeshis and lankans are classified and grouped as south Asians. After all its ease for outsiders to point and tell you whom you are exactly.

 

Always be proud of what you are and claiming a fake identity is of bad taste.

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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 21:43

Hey Irani you say that iranian and indian look nothing like eachother you are right just as the Italian look nothing like the Germans, the Spanish look nothing like the slavs and the slavs look nothing like the Balts and the Balts look nothing like the Scandenavians. The difference in appearance of people occurs everywhere. So it should not be to much of a surprise that the Aryan population of Eurpe looks much more like the non Aryan population of Europe than the Aryan population of Europe looks like the Aryan population of Iran or India. We are talking about the transfer of language and culture by a few elit people although in the case of Iran the transfer of people form India also did took place.

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  Quote betaab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 11:59
only in modern day pakistan and extreme north india the transfer of people took place.
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  Quote kshtriya-Mer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 16:23
hmmm if this invasion did take place could it simply not be sloved by in depth dna testing on a large scale comparing dna with south india and europe??
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 03:19
I wish it could! I won't say who, but the DNA evidence has been corrupted by certain religious and social groups that control the technology. So far they have behaved like children and mess up the figures to find everybody is descended from their group. The question is the movement of people from one country to another and all they do is make a mess of it. They don't to accept any answer other than their own. 
elenos
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 03:21
Sleek, you look Turkish, too. Especially from Adana, Hatay or Antep region, I would say.
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Leonidas View Drop Down
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 06:06
Geez guys, is this going to be 'guess my background - race' thread?

 Sleek could come from anywhere on the sub continent or the periphery region west and ive seen darker Iranians...so lets not think modern borders or language groups are great sign posts for 'looks' or race. If only it was as simple as one look vs another look in clearly defined areas...

 

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 06:09
Guys i was quite disappointed by not seeing a 'debate', lets move on to something more...um.. historical.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 06:16
Originally posted by sleek

im from bangladesh.
haha u kno iranians and afgahns here are like ashamed to say their from those countriies.
 ...
im in aus btw.

Not only are you from Aus. Your also from Canberra, about 20 years old, study something like economics at UC (or is it ANU?)* and are friends with Nabeel. And I know for certain you don't have that many muscles in real life.

How's it going? Big%20smileLOL

PS.
*No, no, no. You started at the UC and transferred to ANU just recently. Your also in third year right?



Edited by Omar al Hashim - 09-Aug-2007 at 06:18
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  Quote kshtriya-Mer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 11:39

Im not saying their ever was but if their was then I think more people from perisa and iran have invaded and settled in India more then the people of Europe.

 

Also could it be possible that the north Indians/Pakistanis Vedics were the original inhabitants and the south Indians Dravadians are invading people of African origin that invaded the south of India?

 

  

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  Quote kshtriya-Mer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 11:41
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by sleek

im from bangladesh.
haha u kno iranians and afgahns here are like ashamed to say their from those countriies.
 ...
im in aus btw.

Not only are you from Aus. Your also from Canberra, about 20 years old, study something like economics at UC (or is it ANU?)* and are friends with Nabeel. And I know for certain you don't have that many muscles in real life.

How's it going? Big%20smileLOL

PS.
*No, no, no. You started at the UC and transferred to ANU just recently. Your also in third year right?

 
hahahahahaha
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