Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

Sup.  Welcome to the forum

1. Culture: the mainstream culture of all Gaogouli, Silla, Baiji/Paki states was decented from chinese culture. Of course it added its regional aspects just like other parts of china did. Gogouli used chinese system of writing, ceremony,and philosophies of daolism, buddlalism, confucialism. Now korean just simply went to deny it/they are/were chinese culture countries.

1. Koguri people wore their own style of clothes

2. They ate their own style of food

3. They rode their own style of mountain horses

4. They used Korean bows and arrows.

5. They were heavily influenced by shamanism

6. Daoism confusianism comes in during chosun age.  During the 3 age, it was about Honik.

7. Shiilla and bekjae are same for 1~6.

8.  Korean buddhism is more shamanistic.  Go look for a Korean altar and you see its got more pebbles and greenish.  OR play RON, they made the asian building set as Korean.

9.  Define culture.  We Koreans had dynasties which all lasted more thatn 500 years.  You Chinese dynasties only last for 300 years max.

10.  I don't know what you mean by regional aspects.  It seems as if someone lied to you about this.

2. People: Although some fled to korean peninsula, but "the mainstream peoples" of Gaogouli later all became chinese of northeast china. according to documents of tang dynasty, roughly several "hundreds of thousands" of people moved from the land of former Gaogouli to inland China.

More that that went into Sorabyol, capital of Shilla.  And those who went to Tang later rebelled and moved into Manchu, to establish Barhe(Bohei)

3.Land: the most part of land of former Gaogouli has been china's/chinese for more than 1300 years. The time is Longer than the lasting time of gaogouli state itself.

Since when did China claim "barbarian" land as theirs?  I even heard that Tang called Taiwan a bunch of barbarians and now they all go wtf its still china.

4. Political history: the gaogouli state was found in a place named gao-gou-li County of Han empire. It kings have a long history to recieve polictical titles like "East General","Provincial King(����)" "King" from his superior lord in Middle Kingdom.  Most importantly, Gaogouli ended by Tang army's conquer (with appendage army from silla).

1.  Han's influence over Manchu was dead before Koguri.  Long dead

2.  Koguri started off from Puyo, decendants of Old Choson who still persisted on the northern region of the land conquered by Han

3.  That last sentence is biased.  It was Shilla who conquered Koguri not Tang.  Tang just sat next to Shilla looking how Shilla fought.

Also later because this state admited a vassal of china, therefore ancient chinese historian put gogouli's histroy to Gao-Li mistakenly.

That's when Kublai Khan conquers Korea.  And I thought you chinese called him "barbarian". 

So it was history made gaogouli a china's land. But unfortunaly people of modern korea which gained independence from china and japan, especially those riched south koreans want to make everything from their historybooks a independence.

Mao Zedong's history book said "Koguri is korean".  Its you Chinese who gone mad in recent years.  And those enriched south Koreans are the ones who doesn't care about history

So I guess all Koreans are Chinese, and so are the Japanese because they are related to Koreans...and oh wait the whole world is Chinese!  Yay China rules the friken world...and Hannibal stop asking us questions and tell us your friken point!
Koguryo having relations with Chosun?  Before talking to us I think that you need to make sure what you say is correct
First of all if you are speaking of Go CHosun, it was long dead before Koguryo
and if you are just talking about Chosun...my friend that was founded long before Koguryo, so basically my point is, wtf are you talking about?


Edited by Gubukjanggoon

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I thot you understood my point, but now you go right back to the "China stole from us" issue.  I have said before, let me say it again: China is full of crap.  We're not even talking about China anymore.  I was talking about simply our notion of nationality is an inadequate notion.  What I and Hansioux in effect saying is that Koguryo was not Korea, just as Han was not China, Charlemagne's empire was neither Germany nor France.  If you don't see why this is, we'll have to go over the entire argument again.  What we're not saying is that Koguryo isn't a part of Korean heritage.  The challenge here is that social entities cannot be viewed as a temporally continous entities.  This doesn't mean that cultural aspects of the past (whether it be customs or archeological artifiacts) cannot be celebrated by a people.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    What you're saying is not only understandable, it's justifiable.  I'm sorry that I have to turn everything into some grand sociological theories (sociology was my major in UC Berkeley,) but before you can engage the world in ecumenical dialogues, you gotta make sure that your people is represented.  Martin Luther King Jr said that, "I want integration, but not integration out of power."  People who think that they're being selfless in accepting assimilation and refuse to keep their own kind from being erased from the social image are being truly selfish.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004

I suggest that we should make a stalemate for 1 week, and during that miserable time, we gather some sources to back our claims up.  Of course in a new thread.

And to Gubukjanggoon, Koguri was a multiethnical nation.  You even had murals with paintings of blond people  I'm not saying that Koguryos were whites, but they might even had some white minority.

1. Koguri people wore their own style of clothes

and,,more of those clothes were almost same to ones from ppeople of Chinese han dynasty. just like today's korean tradional clothes are almost same to chinese of chinese Ming dynesty.

2. They ate their own style of food

Also chinese dishes have many regional flavors. what they ate was just like peoples in northeast china.

3. They rode their own style of mountain horses

so, whats the special riding style they have which was different from chinese and damned same with modern koreans?

 

4. They used Korean bows and arrows.

They used Chinese Bows and arrow, there was no korean then.

5. They were heavily influenced by shamanism

all people once has its own shamanism.

6. Daoism confusianism comes in during chosun age.  During the 3 age, it was about Honik.

No.big mistake. if they came to korean penisula at that later as they are in your words, japanese people would know nothing about those as early as 8 centure. and choson was nothing to do with gaoguli. Chinese ideas came to gaoguli within the books which were written in chinese language.

7. Shiilla and bekjae are same for 1~6.

its same as i said.

8.  Korean buddhism is more shamanistic.  Go look for a Korean altar and you see its got more pebbles and greenish.  OR play RON, they made the asian building set as Korean.

Also korean buddhim copied books , classics, ideals from china.because they were using chinese language, so they even didnt need to translate them. korean built buildings by imitating chinese Tang models. and of course gaoguli was not korean, its even had many temples built directly by hands of inland chinese workers. And also here you korean is nothing to do with building styles of gaogouli

9.  Define culture.  We Koreans had dynasties which all lasted more thatn 500 years.  You Chinese dynasties only last for 300 years max.

korean dont have a civilized culture until chinese was introduced. and korean still hanged arts of chinese calligraphy in their rooms to show their are civilized persons. so here chinese gaoguli has nothing to do with koreans.

10.  I don't know what you mean by regional aspects.  It seems as if someone lied to you about this.

i mean the chinese regional aspects gaoguli had is nothing to do with korean of  modern day.

More that that went into Sorabyol, capital of Shilla.  And those who went to Tang later rebelled and moved into Manchu, to establish Barhe(Bohei)

No. i said mainstream went to or stay in Tang. and also Bohai has nothing to do with  koreans since its land and people became chinese.

Since when did China claim "barbarian" land as theirs?  I even heard that Tang called Taiwan a bunch of barbarians and now they all go wtf its still china.

nosense.

1.  Han's influence over Manchu was dead before Koguri.  Long dead

No, it polically lasted till han's end. late restored by dynesties, thats why manchurian is china's land now. And it culturely lasted till now.

2.  Koguri started off from Puyo, decendants of Old Choson who still persisted on the northern region of the land conquered by Han

The positon of where the Old Choson located is still controversy. Also the Old Choson has a ancient chinese lord Jizi who admited by Kings and people of Koryo and Choson..

3.  That last sentence is biased.  It was Shilla who conquered Koguri not Tang.  Tang just sat next to Shilla looking how Shilla fought.

how can you imagine a small state like sillia can handle a state like gaogouli? if they could, they couldnt get their military titles as chinese appertains. besides we have well documented history and tales on how Tang general Xue RenGui conquered gaogouli state and moved their king to chinese capitals.

That's when Kublai Khan conquers Korea.  And I thought you chinese called him "barbarian".

yes , it was also the begining of the state in korean penisular recives the formal titile of "provincial king of choson(���ʿ���)" or "Handle Choson/Gao-li state affairs(Ȩ����/��������)" from their superior lords in middle kingdom until your last king crowned himself the emperor.

Mao Zedong's history book said "Koguri is korean".  Its you Chinese who gone mad in recent years.  And those enriched south Koreans are the ones who doesn't care about history

Mao also sent millions of chinese to defend korea at request of the Great Leader Kim il-Son. and even today, those un-enriched people of china still send aids to our dear neighbor north korea to help its people alive. I hope those South koreans or enriched koreans should do things more to help your kins rather than claims a history of land of china now.

Edited by YanWang

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and,,more of those clothes were almost same to ones from ppeople of Chinese han dynasty. just like today's korean tradional clothes are almost same to chinese of chinese Ming dynesty.

Because China copied it from Korea....?  Korean clothes originated from Dong Yi clothes, btw

Also chinese dishes have many regional flavors. what they ate was just like peoples in northeast china.

That doesn't make them chinese the way french fries is not all American

so, whats the special riding style they have which was different from chinese and damned same with modern koreans?

Chinese Horses: Big, Fat, and rides on praries

Korean Horses: Small, Lumpy, and rides on hills and mountains

Do you expect them to be the same?

They used Chinese Bows and arrow, there was no korean then.

Go visit "Ancient Korean bows" and look for something called Gak-Goong.  Crossbows maybe Chinese, but not bows.  Koreans have this blood of archery distinct with China, just look at the olympics for an evidence

all people once has its own shamanism.

If you look on dictionary.com, you see that the common termnology of "shamanism" originates in Siberia.

No.big mistake. if they came to korean penisula at that later as they are in your words, japanese people would know nothing about those as early as 8 centure. and choson was nothing to do with gaoguli. Chinese ideas came to gaoguli within the books which were written in chinese language.

I never said they never practiced them, just that they weren't dominant, the way Islam was not dominant but was popular during Kori dynasty

korean dont have a civilized culture until chinese was introduced. and korean still hanged arts of chinese calligraphy in their rooms to show their are civilized persons. so here chinese gaoguli has nothing to do with koreans.

I'm referring to Dong Yi.  You Chinese even called Dong Yi as gentlemen

Also korean buddhim copied books , classics, ideals from china.because they were using chinese language, so they even didnt need to translate them. korean built buildings by imitating chinese Tang models. and of course gaoguli was not korean, its even had many temples built directly by hands of inland chinese workers. And also here you korean is nothing to do with building styles of gaogouli

1.  Do you expect Indians to swim all the way to Korea evading China?

2. Dong Yi tombs are made out of stones, while tang were big sand murals.  And guess where the Architecture of Kori came from

mean the chinese regional aspects gaoguli had is nothing to do with korean of  modern day.

Tae-kion? (btw, do you know where Taekwondo came from?)

Ssirum?

Sul Nal?

Moo Goon Hwa?

Siberian Shamanism?

No. i said mainstream went to or stay in Tang. and also Bohai has nothing to do with  koreans since its land and people became chinese.

No it didn't.  Read my thread: "Barhe(Bohei) was not brought down by Khitans!"

nosense.

Prove it

No, it polically lasted till han's end. late restored by dynesties, thats why manchurian is china's land now. And it culturely lasted till now.

Wait...it was dominated by Khitans during song....hmmmm.  I thought Khitans were "BARBARIANS" by Chinese definition.....hmmmm...and let's see manchus....they are classified as outer..thus ... BARBARIANS....and now these Chinese are claiming barbarians as theirs....sounds like how Japan made their "Eastern Great Asian Empire"

The positon of where the Old Choson located is still controversy. Also the Old Choson has a ancient chinese lord Jizi who admited by Kings and people of Koryo and Choson..

Read my thread: Who were the Dong Yi.  I even have Chinese sources confirming that Old Choson originated from Manchu.

how can you imagine a small state like sillia can handle a state like gaogouli? if they could, they couldnt get their military titles as chinese appertains. besides we have well documented history and tales on how Tang general Xue RenGui conquered gaogouli state and moved their king to chinese capitals.

1.  How can you imagine William Wallace handle 300 iron plated armor with a bunch of pikes?

2.  And if Tang was good enough to conquer Koguri, why not Shilla?

3.  Why not Barhe when it was created?  Wasn''t tang strong enough to do that stuff?

yes , it was also the begining of the state in korean penisular recives the formal titile of "provincial king of choson(���ʿ���)" or "Handle Choson/Gao-li state affairs(Ȩ����/��������)" from their superior lords in middle kingdom until your last king crowned himself the emperor.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Mao also sent millions of chinese to defend korea at request of the Great Leader Kim il-Son. and even today, those un-enriched people of china still send aids to our dear neighbor north korea to help its people alive. I hope those South koreans or enriched koreans should do things more to help your kins rather than claims a history of land of china now.

Nein.  He just sent millions of political opposition to war so that they died.  China also just wanted a buffer between capitalism and communism and therefore left South Korea unconquered.  IF China was so lovely, it would have conquered south Korea for the lovly Greate Leader Kim il son.

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You know what?  This discussion is rather pointless.  Perhaps we should make a stalemate for 1 week as suggested, and during that time, hold our breath, hold our patience, and start gathering historical sources to prove our claims. 

I don't want textbooks either.  It would be more pointless to have a Japanese student come put to claim that a brief clash was named as Nanking MAssacre when he bases his claims upon his textbook and what the government told him.

I'll open a topic thread next week.  We shall discuss this matter then.  Okay?

Look hannibal, I don't know if you are some professor or something, but this is basically an amateur thread, we don't want to be swamped with your long academic papers. With all do respect.  We would rather you present your point in a simple easy to understand and fairly short outline outline.  Please, give us your point...which you still haven't done.
"7. Shiilla and bekjae are same for 1~6."
Yan Wang, by your definition, Koguryo is to be considered Chinese because it was "Sinicized"  I guess that by your definition all of Korea is CHinese, and there have been no Korean countries ever.  Also, the Vietnamese never existed and Nintendo is actually run by a Chinese corporation, because Japan also never existed.  Just because a certain group is influenced by another doesn't mean that they suddenly become the same people...
"Mao also sent millions of chinese to defend korea at request of the Great Leader Kim il-Son. and even today, those un-enriched people of china still send aids to our dear neighbor north korea to help its people alive. I hope those South koreans or enriched koreans should do things more to help your kins rather than claims a history of land of china now."
Also, I think that we can all agree that North Korean examples, from either sides, amount to nothing more than propoganda, so let's all refrain from using them.  In addition, Koguryo has always been Considered Korean History, even Chinese school books state this, it is China who is claiming history.

Yan Wang you stated that a large part of Koguryo is located in CHina so it's a Chinese nation, but you have to remember that part of it is also in Korea, extending into the area right below Seoul.  Also by this logic, would Alexander the Great's empire be not considered a Greek or Macedonian empire just because most of it was located in Persia?
"Also korean buddhim copied books , classics, ideals from china.because they were using chinese language"
So are you saying Koguryo was Korean?  Also just because one borrowed a language doesn't mean anything.  Once again are teh Vietnamese or Japanese to be considered Chinese?

"korean dont have a civilized culture until chinese was introduced. and korean still hanged arts of chinese calligraphy in their rooms to show their are civilized persons. so here chinese gaoguli has nothing to do with koreans."

What?  First of saying that one doesn't have a civilized culture is a pretty racist remark, the idea of civilized is an invented term and doesn't exist.  Second of all just because Koreans hang chinese calligraphy up doesn't mean the Koguryo isn't KOrean, I don't get the reasoning.  Koguryo used CHinese characters, so wouldn't they have done the same?

Culturally, I know you don't agree Meng Tzu, KOguryans had more to do with Korea.
examples:  Taekkyon, Ssirum, language, food, and others. 
Culturally Koguryo has this in common with CHina, writing, religeon.
If Koguryo is to be claimed as Chiense because of these facts, why not claim every other Korean dynasty, Vietnamese dynasty, and Japanese entitiy that ever existed?

<>"i said mainstream went to or stay in Tang. and also Bohai has nothing to do with  koreans since its land and people became chinese."

Prove the Mainstream stayed in China.  Also, does Spain not have a claim to the history of its colonies in North America Just because they became the United states and Mexico?  Also I assume the all Native Americans no longer even have a history as they don't have their own countries anymore.


The Han Dynasties Comanderies in Korea were also long dead before Koguryo


"how can you imagine a small state like sillia can handle a state like gaogouli?"
How did Shilla defeat Tang and drive them out of Korea?  They just did.

"besides we have well documented history and tales on how Tang general Xue RenGui conquered gaogouli state and moved their king to chinese capitals."
This probably happened, but the people either went to Shilla, or others founded the Barhae state.  I'm sure some assimilated into China, but the ones who were carrying the torch, bad metaphor, of Koguryo culture and ect went to Korea or founded Barhae, who's people fled to Koryo after the fall of their kingdom.

>>

Edited by Gubukjanggoon

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon Look hannibal, I don't know if you are some professor or something, but this is basically an amateur thread, we don't want to be swamped with your long academic papers. With all do respect.  We would rather you present your point in a simple easy to understand and fairly short outline outline.  Please, give us your point...which you still haven't done.  Yan Wang, by your definition, Koguryo is to be considered Chinese because it was "Sinicized"  I guess that by your definition all of Korea is CHinese, and there have been no Korean countries ever.  Also, the Vietnamese never existed and Nintendo is actually run by a Chinese corporation, because Japan also never existed.  Just because a certain group is influenced by another doesn't mean that they suddenly become the same people...Also, I think that we can all agree that North Korean examples, from either sides, amount to nothing more than propoganda, so let's all refrain from using them.

You are right in one thing Dear Gubuk Though I have had an outline of my point in my mind, I still not sure it is 'right' or 'wrong' for the complexity of GaoGouLi history.

I must examine all materials I collected. The outline of  my viewpoint can just go together with several papers in English.If  I give my point,no evidences to sustain them. Then meaningless quarrel will appear again~