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Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
    Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 21:21

Its the different places, those places that are sinizied obviously don't, those that are at the borders do or just don't care.

My friend went with his dad to Xing Jiang once on a village that don't even have local water. At first he went into the store, the Uighur took out a rifle and said get out you Han bastard. He was pissed, but later his father found the water source and he went to the same store, the owner said nothing, then when he bought meet, the same owner said its free, "say thank you to your dad for me."

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  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 02:44
Originally posted by hannibal

East Jin and Sixteen Warring States period (317-420), in this period we can see that Goguri invaded and occupied the northern part of the  peninsula where once was Central Kingdom's prefectures.

 

I wonder how Xian Bei State and Qian Qin could be part of chinese history. Xian Bei (Sianbi) were the ancient Mongols and Qin people were Tibeto-Qiang (Burmese-related) people who invaded the Central Kingdom. 

 

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 10:17

"I wonder how Xian Bei State and Qian Qin could be part of chinese history. "

Because they were the emperors of china they are part of chinese history, quite simple nothing worth wondering.

 

"Xian Bei (Sianbi) were the ancient Mongols and Qin people were Tibeto-Qiang (Burmese-related) people who invaded the Central Kingdom.  "

 

No, they nevered invaded, they were settled there by peaceful means, they were long sinicised before controlling the central Kingdom. Its irrelevant what ethnic origin they are from, one ought to be careful about defining nationality before the rise of the nation-state. For to suppose that hyphenated identities were necessarily self-contradictory rather than complementary is to misread the ancient mind. Just like how Richard the Lion hard could be both a English and Nornam, yet rules England as their king and thus would be considered English history. And discontent is possible whether the rule be formal or informal and the controlling power native or foreign.

As for Qin, the evidence of their ethnicity is shallow at best, and there are no evidence whatsoever that they are tibetan in origin.

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 10:34

As a native of the Central Kingfom, Wei emperor Xiao Wendi was indeed of the same nationality as the people of Northern China, according to the modern (and ancient) definition.  Xiao Wen Di had renounced his Xianbei heritage and he along with the other emperors certainly took his constitutional obligations to China seriously enough, and you only have to note the claim of his origin as descendent of Huangdi to know that he considered himself both Han and xianbei. Among all their honours and possessions the throne of China was the Qin emperor Fu Qian, Han emperor Liu Zong and the Wei emperors's highest and proudest.

Just as Alexander could be both Greek and Macedonian at the same time, Richard an Anglo-Norman, who happened to speak court French, the emperors of the north were politically Chinese in name as can be seen by their simple claim of origin, name of empire and institution.Discoursing in Latin did not make an English priest an Italian, since both Latin and French were international standards. Must you necessarily be an Englishman because you use English? By such logic as you would use to strip Fu Qian and Toba Hong of their identity. An Asian-American who speaks his parents language at home might not be considered an American, which would be an outrage, and wrong in fact as well as in point of law.

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  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 19:49
Originally posted by warhead

As a native of the Central Kingfom, Wei emperor Xiao Wendi was indeed of the same nationality as the people of Northern China, according to the modern (and ancient) definition.  Xiao Wen Di had renounced his Xianbei heritage and he along with the other emperors certainly took his constitutional obligations to China seriously enough, and you only have to note the claim of his origin as descendent of Huangdi to know that he considered himself both Han and xianbei. Among all their honours and possessions the throne of China was the Qin emperor Fu Qian, Han emperor Liu Zong and the Wei emperors's highest and proudest.

Just as Alexander could be both Greek and Macedonian at the same time, Richard an Anglo-Norman, who happened to speak court French, the emperors of the north were politically Chinese in name as can be seen by their simple claim of origin, name of empire and institution.Discoursing in Latin did not make an English priest an Italian, since both Latin and French were international standards. Must you necessarily be an Englishman because you use English? By such logic as you would use to strip Fu Qian and Toba Hong of their identity. An Asian-American who speaks his parents language at home might not be considered an American, which would be an outrage, and wrong in fact as well as in point of law.

I don't think Huang Di was a Chinese. He was an Eastern Barbarian from Shan Dong area and governed both Eastern Barabarians and some Chinese (Han) as well.

However, some 2000 years later when Si Ma Qian described the history of Huang Di, he included the Huang Di history into the History of Central Kingdom.

Central Kingdom is not the equivalent of "China" as we understand now or in the sense of the country of Han (Chinese) people, 

because whoever (Hun-Turkics, Tungus, Hun-Mongol, Korean, Tibetans, Irano-Toharian peoples) ruled the modern territory of China claimed to be the King of Central Kingdom. 

The adoption of "Central Kingdom" by modern, predominantly Han governments (PRC and RC) is only one of the example of these numerous cases. 

It's like Nu Wa's story that was included as Chinese (Han) history. As is well known, Nu Wa was the legendary god of Miao (Hmong, Mong, Tibeto-Burmese-Qiang-mi-meo) people. These people are still living in China, Myanmar, Thailand and Laos.

 



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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 09:05

 "I don't think Huang Di was a Chinese. He was an Eastern Barbarian from Shan Dong area and governed both Eastern Barabarians and some Chinese (Han) as well. "

Huang Di isn't even a real person, so how do you even give a imaginary been an identity?

 

"Central Kingdom is not the equivalent of "China" as we understand now or in the sense of the country of Han (Chinese) people, "

 

No, cental kingdom today don't mean the land of the Han people, it means the land of all those that live there, there are plenty of non han chinese there, I'm one of them.

 

"It's like Nu Wa's story that was included as Chinese (Han) history. As is well known, Nu Wa was the legendary god of Miao (Hmong, Mong, Tibeto-Burmese-Qiang-mi-meo) people. These people are still living in China, Myanmar, Thailand and Laos."

Why don't you show me the source that Nu Wa is Miao? Theories about ancient cultural diffisusion is always skechy, and what exactly is your point?

 


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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 16:06

TRAVEL
Hot Spot
Investigating Ji'an's Koguryo tombs 
BY

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Traveler: Where Civilizations Once Clashed
Short Cut: Stairway to heaven
Detour: A monumental controversy
Web Crawling: Know before you go

Monday, Jul. 15, 2002
CONFLICTING CLAIMS Chinese scholars say the glistening white pyramid perched on a bluff overlooking the Yalu River is the tomb of Koguryo's 5th century King Changsu. Some of their Korean counterparts disagree, believing their national hero to be buried in Koguryo's second capital, Pyongyang.

The Ji'an region is host to the largest collection of Koguryo tombs outside of Pyongyang, including pyramidal, stepped tombs�like that of Changsu's�and more common mound tombs covered in earth and renowned for their painted murals. As some of the most impressive examples of ancient Asian art, these murals are also the latest fetish in the stolen antiquities trade. Even after 1,500 years, their colorful depictions of Koguryo life and myth still prove seductive, and there have been several reported tomb lootings. Chinese authorities assert that wealthy South Koreans are behind the thefts, an allegation backed by the sighting of stolen Koguryo murals in Seoul last year.

But unlike the region's more famous crypts, Changsu's boasts no colorful murals of meditating Buddhas. Instead, it inspires by its sheer size: a 20-meter-high stack of megaliths that far out-scales any other in the area.

I ascend the tomb's stepped granite blocks to the mouth of the crypt. A bored-looking Chinese guide watches me curiously as I examine the dank and empty hulk of the pyramid's interior. In a sign of deference, Chinese and South Korean banknotes and coins are strewn across the stone slabs of what are ostensibly the sarcophagi of Changsu and his consort. It's a telling display of the two national claims on the site. Hearing of my interest in Koguryo, the guide challenges me, eager to gauge my opinion on a controversial subject. "Was Koguryo a Chinese or Korean kingdom?" she asks. Not wanting to offend, I say I do not know. "Zhongguo de (it was Chinese)," she gushes. If he's still there, King Changsu must be turning in his tomb.

From the Jul. 22, 2002 issue of TIME Asia Magazine

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 19:38

[/QUOTE]

 

I wonder how Xian Bei State and Qian Qin could be part of chinese history. Xian Bei (Sianbi) were the ancient Mongols and Qin people were Tibeto-Qiang (Burmese-related) people who invaded the Central Kingdom. 

 

[/QUOTE]

By that logic the entire world belongs either to Iraqis or the villagers of a small village in central Africa (the former being where Eden is supposedly located, the latter being where scientists believe to be the birthday of the first humans.)  "Chinese" is not just the "indigenous" people of the Central Plane (the so-called "Han" population most likely, by now, include a lot of ethnicities such as Xianbei.)

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 19:31
BTW Demon, remember when you were trying to convince us that Koguryo's correct pronounciation was Goguri.  Well I did some random research and I found that the Japanese pronounciation of Koguryo is Kokuri...a lil strange dontcha think?  BTW Shinla in Japanese is Shiragi (Isn't this a rice brand?) and supposedly Baekje is Kudara (I don't know how this one fits...)...

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  Quote chaeohk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 18:52
Korea-Corea Shilla-Shina  Baekje-Paekje  Kimchi-Gimchi  Koguryo-Goguri-Gauri Gim-Kim-Cim??? Choson-Josun .....
there are so many different spellings and pronounciations for korean words

they are only spelled out and pronounced correctly in Korean


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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 19:37
I was surprzed he didn't have us call Koguryo Gauri..
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