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Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

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Gubook Janggoon View Drop Down
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
    Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:28
What is your point Hannibal?  Not to be rude or anything, I still don't understand what you are trying to say, and as I cannot read or comprehend Chinese, I won't be able to understand from your papers. Could you please state clearely and concisely what you are trying to say?  THanks
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:54
Ummm..  That NJstar program....I don't really know how it works... All words now turn into squares
Grrr..
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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:57

I was distracted by I/eye's remarks about Gando(Jian dao) today. So I read  inorder to know more about it.  I will post some info in my reading ...

I will give my point  on Gugori soon  Please be paitent...

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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 14:05

Originally posted by demon

Ummm..  That NJstar program....I don't really know how it works... All words now turn into squares

Click like the above pic, and you will have many choice. Just try,you will find one choice can make see the characters.

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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 17:12

hannibal..

it was nice of you to colour your post so we can easily see which part is the quote and which part is your comment. thank you for that.

now, how about actually posting valid comments?

you said Koreans are crazy, I responded by saying the Chinese government was the crazy one. then you said something about pronounciation of Koguryo/ri?

you said Koreans need to persuade the Chinese. I responded by saying it is the Chinese that need to persuade the world. you didn't even say anything to this.

you said Koguryo was under Han power, I responded by saying it was under Gochosun before that, and that it liked being under Gochosun but hated being under Han. but you told me to go read something about Gochosun's people and leaders which I already said I couldn't

you told me about fear of Koreans claiming southern manchuria. I responded by saying it's not all of southern manchuria, just Gando, and told you the perfectly lawful claim by the Koreans. then you said stuff about when the Koreans moved there?

and you have yet to tell us your point about Koguryo

do you see the problem?

sure you might be distracted, but you can still give us one-line comments with just the jist of your idea...

so I can tell you you are wrong and save you the trouble of looking up BS

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 18:26

Hey I/eye,

    You wrote, "in fact, China didn't give a damn about Koguryo until the last few years. Koguryo historic sites were left to become ruins for over a millenium, and only after China started claiming Koguryo as Chinese history, did preservation process begin."

    You're quite right, none of this is research.  I might be wrong, but I doubt that any of these ruins were unknown (after all, they are in broad daylight.)  They weren't found after archeological research.  They are not collecting data.  They are interpreting data.  This is nothing new, of course; what they are doing with Koguryo isn't much different from what they're doing with Taiwan, Tibet, and Turkestan.  When a political agenda of such magnetude is so obvious, every sensible people should be doubtful in approaching such "researches."

    The Korean "researchers" aren't any better.  Of all things, they rely on interpreting legendary and mythological accounts to reinterpret history.  In an age when the historicity of Jesus and Confucius is under question, in an age when ancient documents and ancient texts are under skeptical scrutiny, these "researchers" are desperate enough to turn to, of all things, legends and myths and try to prove history, to prove that such figures as Chiu were national heroes.  The hype that result from all this is itself a clear indication that we need to take these "researches" with a grain salt.  Many grains of salt.  This debate is really between two groups of esteem-deprived nationalists.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 18:33

 these "researchers" are desperate enough to turn to, of all things, legends and myths and try to prove history, to prove that such figures as Chiu were national heroes

Hmmmm.  It's like saying Pang gu stuff is **** and you forbid people from learning that.  It also means that your traditional custom to pray for fortune is wrong and you abolish it.  My point is that legends and myths are heritage that reflects your ethnic.  The way Greek god mythology reflected upon greek society.  Remember, a country without past has no future.

Koguryo was under Han power

Han died before Koguryo existed

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:02
Yea, Han did die before Koguryo even existed....

Also Meng Tzu, although I agree with most of the things you say, I have to question this.  Yes the runis are in broad day light for all to see and say wow, there they are...But until recently the PRC was involved in a project involving the building of a damn that if carried through would have totally destroyed some of the sites...and then they had a change of heart...Koreans are asking why? in a suspicious, freaked out, I remember Tibet sort of way.

But other wise, I am once again enthralled by your wisdom.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:08

Hey demon,

    Let's be clear about who you're addressing.  I never said Koguryo was under Han's power.  If someone else said it, name him.

    you wrote, "Hmmmm.  It's like saying Pang gu stuff is **** and you forbid people from learning that."

    That stuff is **** if facticity is concerned.  There's no proof for Pangu.  I find the claim that Huangdi is the ancestor of all Chinese equally groundless.  And you are attacking a strawman here: I never said that one should be forbidden to learn it.  But to believe in its facticity just because one wants to out of nationalist zeal is delusional.  If it's rational to believe whatever we want, I believe superman exists.

     you wrote, "It also means that your traditional custom to pray for fortune is wrong and you abolish it."

     More strawman.  For one thing, you're way behind in the game: the Communists already abolished a lot of traditional customs.  For another thing, you're treating something entirely different from what I'm discussing.  I believe in assigning value to things.  We can applaud people holding up national symbols that are legendary and mythological.  If you had read my post, that is clearly not what I'm critiquing.  What I critique is, rather, the insistence that these things are true -- and using legends and myths as premises and proofs for what is objectively true.  I'll discuss more about this below.

    You wrote, "My point is that legends and myths are heritage that reflects your ethnic.  The way Greek god mythology reflected upon greek society.  Remember, a country without past has no future."

    You're absoulutely right.  But the nationalists are doing more than this.  You yourself claim that you believe Chiu existed: on what grounds?  Of course, I have no contest if it's a matter of faith for you: a lot of people are religious for little rational reason.  What is disturbing is the insistence that these things were real.  There's nothing wrong (in fact it is a good thing) in believing what gives one hope and identity; to conclude that it is therefore true, however, is nonsensical.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004



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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:17

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    The obvious answer is that China is seeking redefine its national identity.  China and Korea are going in opposite direction here: China is trying to establish a multi-national identity, whereas Koreans (at least the general population) are ever more insistent on a "pure blood" type of nationality.  The problem, however, is that it appears many Chinese do not understand how this multi-national identity works: I cannot say for sure, but it appears that the tacit premise for the Chinese is that Han = Chinese.  The result is a double-speak: "Chinese is multi-ethnic, but, well, it's really Han-dominant anyway."  Now if it seems like my answer has nothing to do with your question, see my recent reply to "hey Koreans" in the "Jian Do / Gando" thread.  In brief, the syllogism for China's rationale goes like this: Koreans Chinese are Chinese; Koguryo is Korean heritage; therefore, Koguryo is Korean Chinese heritage; therefore, Koguryo is Chinese heritage.  Surprisingly enough, if we can manage to define these terms properly, neither Chinese nor Koreans should have any contention here: in the same way that Native American heritage is given an honored place among the many factors that contributed to US history, we can say that Korean culture contributed to China's history.  Problem is: what do people really recognize to be "Chinese?"  What do the Chinese themselves recognize?  If they are stuck with the "Han-dominant" mindset, they are not very different from the White supremacists of America.  To add to the confusion: Korean nationalists themselves are resistant toward inclusivity.  Would they want to be honored as participants in China's history?  Would they see this as a token of respect or a dubious effort to be subsumed under another culture?  You see, the outcome of this debate is not up to any amount of archeological finding or textual analysis of historical documents and texts; it's really up to what attitude we carry into the dialogue.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 20:40
You're right again!   My nationalism has kinda of played down in the past few days, but its been flaring up again because of What Hannibal is saying...Hanibal is this just a misunderstanding? or is there really a clash of ideas?
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 20:45

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I think it's best to leave Hannibal be.  I've seen the likes of him: busting out loads and loads of "documents" (such action is called spamming) that supposedly make his point (but he can never really tell us what the point is.)  I just didn't expect my own people would do that too.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004

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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 21:09

MengTsu.

about that Chiu as Korean national hero..

the "research" for that happened during the Japanese colonization period, when the Japanese were trying to shrink down Korean history.

the Korean nationalist view of history was born as a reactionary theory to the Japanese Imperialist-made theory.

and it's gaining popularity again as a reactionary measure because of enjoyjapan(Korean site where Korean and Japanese is translated instantly.. it's a big battlefield, really..) and the exposure to Japanese Imperialist view through it, Japan's claim to Dokdo Isles, the Chinese government's claims on Koguryo, etc.

I, and many other Koreans do take it with many grains of salt.

at any rate, it is not government-backed, it is not being exposed to people at national historic sites, and it is not being taught it schools. that's the difference.

South Korea has a very advanced telecommunications field, and more than 3/5th of the population is on-line. this is the reason the nationalist view is easily accessed. I hope this clears your misunderstanding.

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 21:15

Hey I/eye,

    Thanks, that did ease the disturbance a bit.  I'd add that seemingly many Chinese are not aware of the "China claimed Koguryo" bit (the Chinese who come online in this forum are quite a rarity.)  If Koguryo is "Kao Ke Li," then it's common sense that it has something to do with "Kao Li," which every informed Chinese understands to be ancient Korea.

    It seems that Korean nationalism is popular among the people but not with the government (something that I've noticed: I give the SK government props for being rational in the dialogue; they understand the priority,) while Chinese nationalism is from top down (sadly, more and more Mainlanders are becoming very nationalistic.)

    China is trying to become America.  In many respects China is succeeding: it has learned the Fascist politics of America.  Of course, China's still an amateur: it still sounds like the overt nationalism of Nazi Germany.  America and Europe are the ones that mastered the art of using ethnicity as a political tool.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 02:19
Originally posted by I/eye

hannibal..

it was nice of you to colour your post so we can easily see which part is the quote and which part is your comment. thank you for that.

now, how about actually posting valid comments?

you said Koreans are crazy, I responded by saying the Chinese government was the crazy one. then you said something about pronounciation of Koguryo/ri?

you said Koreans need to persuade the Chinese. I responded by saying it is the Chinese that need to persuade the world. you didn't even say anything to this.

Maybe we should persuade each other,if you think there is no compromise.

Originally posted by I/eye

you said Koguryo was under Han power, I responded by saying it was under Gochosun before that, and that it liked being under Gochosun but hated being under Han. but you told me to go read something about Gochosun's people and leaders which I already said I couldn't

You couldn't ? Maybe you have not the slightest desire to explore it.For you firmly believe what you have been told by your newspapers or any other media. In fact, Goguri Kingdom was founded after the Gochosun defeated by Han dynasty, so will  Goguri liked being under a country didn't in existence?

I also said I will translate a paper before long ( about the contuning amalgamation in ancient Chosun peninsula before Han Dynasty) .Soon, you could read it. I welcome discussion about the paper.

Originally posted by I/eye

you told me about fear of Koreans claiming southern manchuria. I responded by saying it's not all of southern manchuria, just Gando, and told you the perfectly lawful claim by the Koreans. then you said stuff about when the Koreans moved there?

and you have yet to tell us your point about Koguryo

do you see the problem?

I do not think your evidences about Gendo is convictive. 

The French who drawn the map did not know the history between China and Korea at all.

Originally posted by I/eye

sure you might be distracted, but you can still give us one-line comments with just the jist of your idea...

so I can tell you you are wrong and save you the trouble of looking up BS

I will give my points later, my friend



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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 04:57

Maybe we should persuade each other,if you think there is no compromise

right now, everyone in the forum except you thinks that Koguryo is Korean history. so it is you who must persuade us.

you can start by actually telling us your point. MengTsu did say you never will.. maybe he's right?

You couldn't ? Maybe you have not the slightest desire to explore it

do you want me to look up every single character?

For you firmly believe what you have been told by your newspapers or any other media.

I knew of Koguryo before any media told me about it. in fact, before even my school taught me about it. and by the way, I don't believe in any media 100%

In fact, Goguri Kingdom was founded after the Gochosun defeated by Han dynasty, so will Goguri liked being under a country didn't in existence?

Koguryo Tribe was there before Gochosun was defeated. along with Buyo Tribe

I do not think your evidences about Gendo is convictive. 
The French who drawn the map did not know the history between China and Korea at all.

then you should have said so before. of course, you are wrong, as all the dates and events are factual, and the Frenchman not knowing the history makes him more reliable, because he will only see what is there



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 05:15

Hannibal, if you want to translate, please do on a new thread  Or it will get too messy

If they are stuck with the "Han-dominant" mindset, they are not very different from the White supremacists of America.  To add to the confusion: Korean nationalists themselves are resistant toward inclusivity. 

These nationalists are not just persistent braggets.  They at least try to find evidence through everything.  They are trying stuffs rationally.  They deserve a look before we leap on.  Or at least I think

Grrr..
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 05:32

Hey demon,

    "These nationalists are not just persistent braggets.  They at least try to find evidence through everything.  They are trying stuffs rationally.  They deserve a look before we leap on.  Or at least I think"

    Three things.  First of all, my comment quoted in your post has nothing to do with nationalist persistence -- it clearly stated in explicit wording, "resistence towards inclusivity."  Secondly, what's a bragget?  Thirdly, I know they are trying -- they are trying too hard, in fact.  They are looking for things in the wrong places -- they are trying to prove objective reality through legends and myths.  Now I'm not talking about the Koguryo case here, and I'm not demeaning the symbolic value of legends and myths (I think I already covered that.)  I'm saying it's not rational at all to take a premise as its conclusion: "we believe in the legends and myths, therefore they are true" -- that's a major logical flaw.  I must say that for trying so hard, they didn't get very far, and they didn't try very rationally.

    The Koguryo question is even more pointless.  There's no longer any research of facts, no longer any need of evidence.  The debate, as I've said ad nauseum, is not about facts, it's about interpretation.  We have a big TV at home.  That's a fact.  Do I or my brother (when he comes home) have a greater claim to it?  That's interpretation.  No one here denies the fact of Koguryo.  But no one can prove the categorical interpretations about it either.  It's because "China" and "Korea" are definitive constructs.  They mean whatever people define them to be.  Definition is a given, you can't prove it, you don't have to prove it.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 05:51

Secondly, what's a bragget? 

Slang for those who doesn't want to accept their contraditions

"resistence towards inclusivity.
The problem is with the word "inclusivity".  I do not find them totally inclusively

I must say that for trying so hard, they didn't get very far, and they didn't try very rationally.

Maybe I should start a new thread about the "Korean Nationalist" perspective (If I've got time)

We have a big TV at home.  That's a fact.  Do I or my brother (when he comes home) have a greater claim to it?  That's interpretation.

There is a compromise to be done .  The problem about Koguryi is that China suddenly makes this BS without warning.  In the era where Kim Jong ill is in his 60's and 1 Million PRC army is placed over the Korean border.  In the era in which China is expanding into Myanmmar.

Koreans know it by history.  Whenever China got rich, it were his border nations who always payed the price.  This has been certain with Tang, Sui, Qing, and many more.

It's because "China" and "Korea" are definitive constructs
China didn't have to start a new construct

Grrr..
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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 06:03

Maybe we should persuade each other,if you think there is no compromise

right now, everyone in the forum except you thinks that Koguryo is Korean history. so it is you who must persuade us.

you can start by actually telling us your point. MengTsu did say you never will.. maybe he's right?

 

Till now, I haven't told anyother my countrymen the address of the forum. For I believe too many angry people here will make the forum in a status of terrible chaos. So, i am minority nationality here and then I am wrong before I say anything? Right? 

In the same way, if a part of a people immigrate to a place of another country, one day, their population exceed local people,  then, according to your NUMBER FIRST logic, the place must be theirs and no longer belong to its original host. Is that's right?

If the right of everything only depended on THE NUMBER OF A POPULATION, heheh, Chinese People will be the most rightful ...

I have posted an article in hybrid language . (Korean, and Chinese) , for I got some important information (about half of the content, for there are Chinese characters in it)about the Gendo problem. Why not read, or give it to one of your friend who can read it .

 Yes, you wanted my viewpoint and I said I will give you my point. Never? Kidding? One week is enough. Those papers I listed ,you say you can not read  So,I will translate some of them.For that's why I am here.My point again?  I have said more than one times in different post:I'm not good at English. So, I need time.

As for those papers , I do not want use it as a weapon to force somebody accept a different viewpoint. I just want them know, there is a different viewpoint. If it possible, I want know what do they think  of another side of a coin.

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