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Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
    Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:47

 

The situation during China's Three Kingdom Period(220 - 280). Please pay attention on the Goguri territory.

 



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 14:08

The situation during West Jin Dynasty(256-317). Please pay attention on the Goguri territory.

 

 



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 14:11

Ummm.  I'm having a hard time reading those blurry pictures.  Can you put a description of what's going on?

 

Grrr..
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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 14:25
Originally posted by demon

Ummm.  I'm having a hard time reading those blurry pictures.  Can you put a description of what's going on?

 

I will describe it for you demon, before I give the detail, I must post each period's map. These maps can show you how Goguri developed from a tiny point of the northwestern China to a big Kingdom.



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:09

East Jin and Sixteen Warring States period (317-420), in this period we can see that Goguri invaded and occupied the northern part of the  peninsula where once was Central Kingdom's prefectures.



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:37

The situation in Nanbei Dynasty period (420 - 589 A.D.).  We can find that Chinese historians use the same color to show us that from then on Goguri(高句麗), Silla  (新罗)and BaiKje (百济) were all Korean peninsula countries thus began the three Kingdom period in Korean history.



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:56

The situation in Sui Dynasty (581 - 618 A.D.)  Now,Goguri(高句麗), Silla  (新罗)and BaiKje (百济) were in war.

 

 

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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:18

The critical time :Tang Dynasty (618 - 907 A.D.)

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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:33

The Five Dynasty Period(917-960). China fell into fragmentation again.



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:45

Liao Dynasty and North Song Dynasty

Liao(907-1125)

North Song(960-1279)



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:51
Ok, I have finish my job today.  So tired......
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 17:40
So what are the points of all of these maps...I even see maps of Barhae (Bohai), which is not pertaining to this discussion.

Also if I could read Chinese I'd argue with you about the points listed in your links...but seeing as I can not, I'll have to wait for someone to clarify this for me...
Good show with evidence though!
Perhaps you could write down a cohesive outline, much like mine hehe, and explain your argument slowly and concisely...Otherwise, unless Demon is adept at reading Chinese, I see this argument going no where soon.
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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 17:56

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

So what are the points of all of these maps...I even see maps of Barhae (Bohai), which is not pertaining to this discussion.

Also if I could read Chinese I'd argue with you about the points listed in your links...but seeing as I can not, I'll have to wait for someone to clarify this for me...
Good show with evidence though!
Perhaps you could write down a cohesive outline, much like mine hehe, and explain your argument slowly and concisely...Otherwise, unless Demon is adept at reading Chinese, I see this argument going no where soon.

calm down,friend. As the infomation of the papers can flood me.I can only tell you slowly. And I'm not good at English,there is the curb. If I can, I want translate a paper for you within 30 minutes. But I can not... Maybe I need a whole days, heheh

Please examine the change of Goguri's territory in history, you can understand its' relationship between China and Modern Korea. 

see you...

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 18:31
Lol, maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't get anything from those maps....Perhaps you could explain

I do know the Koguryo was Downed by a joint Tang-Shinla invasion...Is that what you are saying?

If it is, I still don't get your point....Even if Koguryo was conquered by Tang, doesn't mean its a chinese country....

lol so confused.
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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 19:42

I think this is what hannibal is saying:

Until 400's, Koguryo is coloured the same as Buyo and others of the north, differently from southern Koreans(Baekje, Silla, Kaya)

From 400's Koguryo is coloured the same as southern Korea(Baekje, Silla, Kaya)

possibly because Koguryo moved the capital south to Pyungyang in 427?

but I'm sorry hannibal.. I still don't get what you mean by Koguryo's relationship between China and modern Korea..

 

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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 20:23

I think Korean people are too crazy when they facing the Koguryo question. Don't deny the fact please,  I find korean newspapers full of irresponsible reports about this question.  If you ask me what wrong thing China have done on Koguryo question, I can tell you only one thing: The Local government of JiAn city should not went so far before  the common academic study between China and Korea(this must be done) on the history of Koguryo have finished.

Korean people are being crazy because the Chinese government is being crazy. What the Chinese project is doing is NOT new research on Koguryo. It is distorting what was already researched to fit its needs.

in fact, China didn't give a damn about Koguryo until the last few years. Koguryo historic sites were left to become ruins for over a millenium, and only after China started claiming Koguryo as Chinese history, did preservation process begin.

 

about your letter:

you are asking Koreans to persuade the Chinese.

However, it should be the Chinese who should have persuaded the Koreans before making the claim. everyone in the world who knew of Koguryo knew it as part of Korean history. for Koreans, this was on the level of common sense.

It is not the Koreans who are forcing anything. It is the Chinese who are trying to force Koguryo history into Chinese history. If China wants to overturn the current knowledge, it is the one who has to prove it to the world. and it should have done that much before starting the propaganda.

 In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory (Xuan Tu Prefecture玄菟郡)of Han Dynasty,it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture (乐浪郡), ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes 马韩、辰韩 and 弁韩. So, what do you think of Goguri

and before it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official, it was a tribe under the domination of local Gochosun official. and while under Gochosun, it remained content, but after fall of Gochosun, it kept fighting the Han commandaries..

the papers I listed below would help me to clarify our viewpoint

I don't think any of the Koreans here can read those..

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh

Jian island as you understood it, is actually land in southeastern Manchuria, Gando.

I have said this in another forum:

"how do you think all the Chosun ehnics ended up in Yanbian?

When Manchus moved into China, Chosun people settled there since 1700's.
Problem rose when Qing wanted the land back in 1880's, but Chosun kept its people and administration there.

I've included a map of Chosun drawn by a French missionary below

http://s7.invisionfree.com/China_History_Forum/index.php?act =Attach&type=post&id=3992823

in 1900's, Japan takes over diplomacy of Korea, and in 1909, signs the Gando(Jiandao) agreement with Qing, in which the region is given to Qing in return for some previledges in Manchuria, including the right to put down a railroad there.

after 1910, when Japan annexed Korea, independence movement moved into that region, because although it was now part of Qing, most of the people were Korean.

with Japan's surrender in 1945, all of its gains in territories and all the treaties it made is cancelled, including the 1909 Gando agreement."

So Gando actually does rightfully belong to Korea. it's just that it's been a long time, and Korea's divided into two, so the situation is too complicated to realistically expect the return of the territory.



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 03:20

[/quote]I think Korean people are too crazy when they facing the Koguryo question. Don't deny the fact please,  I find korean newspapers full of irresponsible reports about this question.  If you ask me what wrong thing China have done on Koguryo question, I can tell you only one thing: The Local government of JiAn city should not went so far before  the common academic study between China and Korea(this must be done) on the history of Koguryo have finished.[/quote]

Korean people are being crazy because the Chinese government is being crazy. What the Chinese project is doing is NOT new research on Koguryo. It is distorting what was already researched to fit its needs.

in fact, China didn't give a damn about Koguryo until the last few years. Koguryo historic sites were left to become ruins for over a millenium, and only after China started claiming Koguryo as Chinese history, did preservation process begin.

Koguri(another Korean friend in this forum ask me use 'Koguri' instead of ' Koguryo',for he believe 'Koguryo' was a Japanese way of pronunciation). I understand you, but things are more complex than what you thought before. That's why I find this forum and want exchange viewpoints with Korean friends.

about your letter:

you are asking Koreans to persuade the Chinese.

However, it should be the Chinese who should have persuaded the Koreans before making the claim. everyone in the world who knew of Koguryo knew it as part of Korean history. for Koreans, this was on the level of common sense.

It is not the Koreans who are forcing anything. It is the Chinese who are trying to force Koguryo history into Chinese history. If China wants to overturn the current knowledge, it is the one who has to prove it to the world. and it should have done that much before starting the propaganda.

 In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory (Xuan Tu Prefecture鐜勮彑閮)of Han Dynasty锛宨t was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture (涔愭氮閮), ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes 椹煩銆佽景闊 and 寮侀煩. So, what do you think of Goguri

and before it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official, it was a tribe under the domination of local Gochosun official. and while under Gochosun, it remained content, but after fall of Gochosun, it kept fighting the Han commandaries..

I know there was a Gochosun (鍙ゆ湞椴) before Han Dynasty ruled the northern part of the peninsula. But when we study the Gochosun's people and ruler, things will be very interesting. I advise you read the first paper which I listed above.  If you can not read Chinese, I will translate it later. But translation always cause  something loss during the process of cultural transmission. 

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh

Jian island as you understood it, is actually land in southeastern Manchuria, Gando.

I have said this in another forum:

"how do you think all the Chosun ehnics ended up in Yanbian?

When Manchus moved into China, Chosun people settled there since 1700's.
Problem rose when Qing wanted the land back in 1880's, but Chosun kept its people and administration there.

I've included a map of Chosun drawn by a French missionary below

in 1900's, Japan takes over diplomacy of Korea, and in 1909, signs the Gando(Jiandao) agreement with Qing, in which the region is given to Qing in return for some previledges in Manchuria, including the right to put down a railroad there.

after 1910, when Japan annexed Korea, independence movement moved into that region, because although it was now part of Qing, most of the people were Korean.

with Japan's surrender in 1945, all of its gains in territories and all the treaties it made is cancelled, including the 1909 Gando agreement."

So Gando actually does rightfully belong to Korea. it's just that it's been a long time, and Korea's divided into two, so the situation is too complicated to realistically expect the return of the territory.

As for Gando and Korean minornity nationality in Yanbian, I have read some books about the two issues,even  find some records in Korean and Japanese in books. Very interesting.

You know,the land of Manchuria is very fertile, many Koreans immigrate to there  due to all kind of causes since 17th century. But Korean minornity nationality in China today are desendants of  Korean emigration immigrate since twenties in 19th.There are record to the time.As for the emigration earlier to the time, they all naturalized (褰掑寲). That's ture.

I also find, ancient Korean people's immigration to China can be traced earlier than 17 century.But that's not the topic of our discussion.

 



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 05:34

I recommend you download a software which can trasfer between many different Chinese characters no matter simplified or traditional Chinese. Then you can see the papers at least.

  http://down1.tyfo.com/down/soft/pc/apply/chinese/web/file/nj win188.exe



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 10:47

Awww.  Thanx hannibal.  Now I can read what is on the website.

I also find, ancient Korean people's immigration to China can be traced earlier than 17 century.But that's not the topic of our discussion

You mean, decendants of Barhe(Bohai) and Goguri(Gao Gu li) are not Koreans?  I thought that was the topic of this discussion....

But Korean minornity nationality in China today are desendants of  Korean emigration immigrate since twenties in 19th

Most 100% koreans (excluding Goguri and Barhe decendant population due to their unclarity on defining their ethnicity) came there because they were prisoners during ming-qing conflict (choson sent reinforcements but many were captured), or to fight Japanese during colonization, where boundaries were not well defined.

-----------------------

BTW, the eurasia webpage works but its got so many words I never have seen before   Is it simplified Chinese?

Grrr..
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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 11:46
Originally posted by demon

Awww.  Thanx hannibal.  Now I can read what is on the website.

I also find, ancient Korean people's immigration to China can be traced earlier than 17 century.But that's not the topic of our discussion

You mean, decendants of Barhe(Bohai) and Goguri(Gao Gu li) are not Koreans?  I thought that was the topic of this discussion....

I'm not refer to Borhe and Goguri,what I mean are those immigrate to China later than Borhe and Goguri, but earlier than 17th century.

Originally posted by demon

But Korean minornity nationality in China today are desendants of  Korean emigration immigrate since twenties in 19th

Most 100% koreans (excluding Goguri and Barhe decendant population due to their unclarity on defining their ethnicity) came there because they were prisoners during ming-qing conflict (choson sent reinforcements but many were captured), or to fight Japanese during colonization, where boundaries were not well defined.

Yes,demon,I have read what you said in books. From the foundation of Qing Dynasty to 1820s, near 200 years passed. Just think what happened to those immigration.The answer is ---Naturalisation.

In fact, 99% Korean minornity in YanBian nowadays were descendents who immigrated to China after 1820s .

Originally posted by demon

BTW, the eurasia webpage works but its got so many words I never have seen before   Is it simplified Chinese?

Yes,it's in simplified Chinese. but the software has a function which can transfer simplified Chinese into traditional Chinese if you want.



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