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Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

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Gubook Janggoon View Drop Down
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
    Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 23:45
Korean History is very conterversial and i just wanted to start a discussion on the Koguryo Dynasty and the fedaration of Gaya.

Fedaration of Gaya:  During the years before WWII Japan Claimed the Gaya was a colony of Japan and this assertion was the reason Japan gave to the world for annexing Korea, basically they are regaining lost land.  What do you think?

Koguryo: China is claiming Koguryo as a  Chinese Kingdom and  the Korea's are saying no.  What do you think?

I hope this forum is a little more peacful than the one on the CHina History forum about koguryo, that turned into a nationalistic riot (partly do to my part, but i'll behave better this time) so I was just wondering about everyone's takes on these issues.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 05:18

I think Gaya=Japanese with one catch!  Since Japs came from Gaya, Japanese=Korean and therefore Japan should be Korean! j/k.  But I think their points are somewhat valid, because Chinese record mentions japan to have started in southern Korea and the lot moved to the island once Koguryo started to expand, as well as the Japanese creation myth which matches with Gaya creation myth.  And that stela thing they claim is false because they forged it.(wish I had the old AE post to prove this...)

Koguryo-I'll think more about this issue and come up with a better idea.

 

Grrr..
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:39

In the book of Korean history I read last summer it was that Japan was an ally of the southern kingdom but not in direct control over it at all.

 

BTW was Koguryo founded by Steppe peoples? If so that would be cool!

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:55
Actually from what I know the "korean" part of Japanese people are Baekje people, who were of Buyeo stock.  From what I understand, Shilla and Kaya were actually more Scythian

Yes Tobodai, I guess you could call the People of Koguryo Steppe People.  Koguryo was of Buyeo stock too, along with Baekje and Buyeo.  You Have to remember though, Koreans are made up of a bunch of totally different peoples, including Ainu, Dravidian, Scythian, Buyeo, Miao, and perhaps even Malay peoples. 
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 20:51

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I really have to see which Chinese sources are claiming Koguryo as Chinese, because if there are, I'm more sickened than ever by modern Mainland China intellectuals.  What on earth happened to the smarter guys, like Fung Yu Lan and the others?

Peace,

Michael

8-20-2004

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 21:31
Those smarter mainland guys probably got what the PRC gives to everyone, a prison cell or a bullet to the head.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 23:44

Hey Tobodai,

    I don't know what you hate about Confucianism (which is why I asked you how would you define it -- cuz that's often what it comes down to.  Depending on what you consider to be "Confucian," it might appear very positive or very negative.)  In any case, Chinese Communism -- now that's something we can all hate.

Peace,

Michael

8-20-2004

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 01:25
communism in general its all pretty ungood.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 16:14
I like communism in its ideal...i hate communism in its actual form...Its basically the PRC that's claiming Koguryo, i think its even on their website...its top historians and scientists...South Korea's waiting on what the PRC is going to put in its text books next year....The Big point for Koreans on this issue, which is often misunderstood, is not to claim Southern Manchuria and is not to do some other crazy nationalist thing...   Koreans feel that they have very little, owing to the states weakness in the late years of Josun, and they feel like they have to fight for every little scrap they have left.  ITs like a cornered rat...except in that case the cornered rat has become pretty strong...
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 17:04

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    Communism is also problematic in its ideal.  Its prediction about capitalism is only partly right (although right enough to alarm us.)  It's actual form has never existed, so I'm not sure how you can hate it: there has never been a Communist state.  According to Marx, Communism is achieved after the Socialist Proletariat Dictatorship dissolves when all classes disappear along with private properties.  Soviet Union, China, etc, were all Socialist Proletariat Dictatorship, not Communist state (there is no such thing as "Communist state" since Communist society is stateless.)

    "The Big point for Koreans on this issue, which is often misunderstood, is not to claim Southern Manchuria and is not to do some other crazy nationalist thing...   Koreans feel that they have very little, owing to the states weakness in the late years of Josun, and they feel like they have to fight for every little scrap they have left.  ITs like a cornered rat...except in that case the cornered rat has become pretty strong..."

    Depends how you define "crazy nationalist."  I agree that the Koreans feel that they have very little to claim.  But this is very unhealthy, just as unhealthy as Chinese deluding themselves to think that they have very much to claim.  Like I said in another post, nationalism is an illusion: a destructive Western invention that at least incites soccer fans to riot, and at worst lead the popularity of such figures as Bush and his war.  All human history is yours and mine: is it really important to claim it?  The Koreans and Chinese are, unfortunately, playing into this mind game of the Westerners (which was also taken up by the Japanese.)  Have you realized that the most "successful" countries that beat the crap out of others (economically and militarily) nowadays are the ones with relatively short histories (like the US)?  All these Chinese and Korean nationalist "myths" are no better than Nazi Aryan myths, and hopefully they don't evolve into the same atrocity as the latter.

Peace,

Michael

8-21-2004

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 17:52
haha very well said
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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 13:39

[I am not good at English,heheh]

I think Korean people are too crazy when they facing the Koguryo question. Don't deny the fact please,  I find korean newspapers full of irresponsible reports about this question.  If you ask me what wrong thing China have done on Koguryo question, I can tell you only one thing: The Local government of JiAn city should not went so far before  the common academic study between China and Korea(this must be done) on the history of Koguryo have finished. 

Chinese historians now have many academic evidences to prove their viewpoint, Korean newspaper should not turn a blind eye to them. I believe only communication can dispel the atmosphere of misapprehension between the two people.

A week ago ,I wrote a letter to a Korean historical website:

webmaster@kookhakwon.org

GaoGuoLi=Koguryo

Hello Korean friends:

I am a Chinese in mainland China, also, an ancient history fans. I’m so interested
in your country so I read chinese chosun.com everyday. Recently, news about
GaoGuoLi controversy(高句丽争论)become the main concern of mine. Obviously,
I find Korean people are very angry about China’s viewpoint toward GaoGouLi,
but as a Han(汉族) Chinese, I have to say that whether GaoGouli was the
history of Korea still need more study.

The history of GaoGouLi is very complicated,all information were stored in
 old Chinese historical books, so I believe common people in Korea are not
 clear about it for they can not read historical books written in Chinese
 at all.

If Korean historians only told Korean people their own viewpoints but ignore
what Chinese people are thinking, that’s must be a big tragedy. In the same
way, Chinese people need know more about your viewpoint. I read attacks
and condemns of Korean journalists in articles of chinese chosun.com
 almost everyday, but can not find even a single intact thesis written by
Korean historian to support those articles.

I used to believe Korean people are different from those Japaneses. But the attacks
 and condemns in your newspapar ends my dream. I saw a self - center Korea.
If you can not agree with Chinese viewpoint toward GaoGouLi, just discussing,
why so many attacks and condemns. Can you force us to accept your viewpoint? No,never.

So,please, I advise you translate your historians’ papers into Chinese in
 a particular website, so that Chinese people can know what’s evidences you
have and what’s your experts in history are thinking. Also, you can find
many papers written by Chinese historians about GaoGouLi from internet,
 please translate them into Korean language.I believe Korean people’s
reactions will be very valuable after they have read those Chinese
historical papers.

Just remember that only when you do that, you can have the chance to
persuade Chinese people to believe your viewpoint in history.And only after
 you have persuaded Chinese people, the GaoGouLi history can be yours.

name
from HuBei Province of China



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 15:53

GaoGuoLi=Koguryo

Just remember that Koguryo was called "koguri" by Koreans, so the ri/li matches .  ryo was made by the Japanese during colonization.

If Korean historians only told Korean people their own viewpoints but ignore
what Chinese people are thinking, that’s must be a big tragedy. In the same
way, Chinese people need know more about your viewpoint. I read attacks
and condemns of Korean journalists in articles of chinese chosun.com
 almost everyday, but can not find even a single intact thesis written by
Korean historian to support those articles.

Well, that's why I'm here   I'll post some evidence that would hopefully inform you of the Korean perspective.

Also, you can find
many papers written by Chinese historians about GaoGouLi from internet,
 please translate them into Korean language.I believe Korean people’s
reactions will be very valuable after they have read those Chinese
historical papers.

I would, but I know like 30 basic chinese characters only  But linking some of these would help a lot.  I am willing to use my dictionary to decode these characters. 

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 19:23
Hannibal you are treating Koguryo as if it was a recent discovery...Koguryo has been considered a Korean Kingdom since at least the 1100's.  I would like it very much if you posted any proof the PRC has come up with to support it's claims.  THe only official reason they have released so far is that since Koguryo's ancient boundries were partially in the boundries of modern China, it is a Chinese nation....
Here are The Korean reasons

1.  Koreans carry on Koguryo's cultural heritage:  the martial arts of Taekkyun and Ssirum>>

2.  Koreans still speak parts of the language..ex: the word Sunbae meaning elder>>

3.  Koreans still venerate the kings, generals, and other such peoples as national heros.  Ex:  Emperor Gwanggetto and Gen. Ulji Munduk.  Go around in China and ask people who these people are, they won't have a clue.   But in one of the two Korea's an elementary school student can tell you much about the ancient kingdom and who these people are.>>

4.  If the people of Koguryo are of chinese han descent then so is Baekje and so are the people of Japan, as Baekje and Koguryo were founded by the same peoples, and many peoples from Baekje fled to Japan after Silla unified Korea.  So therefore are the Japanese also Chinese?>>

5.  it is basically a move for chinese government to gain an upperhand in the case that North Korea falls.  Koguryo consisted of much of southern manchuria and all of korea from the yalu to just south of seoul.  if NK were to fall the PRC would have a "good" reason to come in to North Korea and "stabilize" the region.  Just up till now, china was planning on building a dam that would have destroyed many of Koguryo's historical sites in china, but it has recently "had a change of heart" and has recently placed the sites under UNESCO.  After not really caring about the sites, one has to wonder with NK's recent weakness why china is suddenly interested>>

6.  China is being a hippocrate:  China recently rebuked Japan for its inaccurate history in their history textbooks, so why is china now distorting history.>>

7.  Koguryo has been considered a part of korean history from at least the 1100's if not earlier.  China has not laid a claim to the nation until recently, Why now?  see reason 6.>>

8.  China is basically doing what did to Tibet, Sinkiang, Manchuria, and Mongolia>>


China's official reason on why Koguryo is actually a chinese nation>>

1.  Because part of Koguryo's ancient politacal boundries now lie in modern day china, the nation of Koguryo must then be chinese.>>

 >>

Hannibal I understand as a Citizen of the PRC you must feel a little defensive about this matter, but hopefully I have shed some light upon this conterversial issue.

Yes Koreans are a bit extreme, but they feel that their whole cultural heritage is at stake.  Also, we have seen China's growing power and China has used the history card before, ie the "liberation" of tibet.  Koreans are genuinely freaked out by this.
The PRC recently deleted all Korean history on its website until the year 1945, what is the meaning of this act.
Some people state that just to be fair, Koguryo should be considered neither Korean or CHinese.   This solution is in fact not fair as the Chinese lose nothing and the Koreans lose a third of their historical heritage.

I hope this sheds a bit of light upon the Korean argument.

>>


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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:37

I have read the same topic of your discussion in China History Forum.

 In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory (Xuan Tu Prefecture玄菟郡)of Han Dynasty,it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture (乐浪郡), ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes 马韩、辰韩 and 弁韩. So, what do you think of Goguri

the papers I listed below would help me to clarify our viewpoint

CHINESE HISTORIANS' PAPERS ON GOGURI

The Ethnic Migration and Amalgamation of  Ancient Korean Peninsula
公元前朝鲜半岛的民族迁徙与融合(important)
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/645.html

The Study on Goguri's  Origin
(1)从“别种”看高句丽族源
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/650.html

(2)高句丽族属溯源
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/653.html

The Study on Goguri's Five Tribes
高句丽五部研究
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/652.html

The Study on Regime Structure  of Goguri
高句丽地方统治结构研究
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/651.html

The Change of Relationship Between Sui Dynasty and Goguri(important)
隋朝与高丽关系的演变
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/362.html

夏至战国中国北方长城地带游牧文化带的形成过程(论纲)
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/727.html
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/728.html

高句丽与中国  Goguri and China(important)
http://www.51lw.com/article/education/292.htm

试论高句丽历史研究的几个问题 On several questions in the study of Goguri   http://www.cnwh.org/news/news.asp?news=503

FANS' ARTICLES
离心的高句丽和向心的汉字
http://cn.mlcool.com/~mlcool/html/ns002124.htm

从历史看朝鲜和中国的边界争端
http://www.xttzw.com/article/shownews.asp?newsid=11449

再谈高丽与高句丽
http://cul.beelink.com.cn/20040707/1623308.shtml

 

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh.

http://chinese.chosun.com/big5/site/data/html_dir/2004/08/19 /20040819000002.html



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:45

In order to show the Chinese characters of those papers properly, please setup Microsoft simplified Chinese software at first.



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:52

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh.

Those same people were capable of burning themselves up to cheer their soccer team.  You should understand that Koreans are like that  It's culture

the papers I listed below would help me to clarify our viewpoint

Hannibal, can you please provide a source for reading your chinese typing machine?  It gets all broken up.  Thanx

The map

use www.imageshack.us for uploading pictures from your C: drive.  If you jsut copy and paste, it would not work.

Grrr..
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:53
btw, all of eurasia link doesn't work...
Grrr..
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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:02

Originally posted by demon

btw, all of eurasia link doesn't work...

it's strange, but I can surf the websie...

The map is not very clear,but after all, we can see a map

The origin of the map is the book below:

The first map reflects the situation of this area during West Han Dynasty.



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  Quote hannibal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:05
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