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Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

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sephodwyrm View Drop Down
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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
    Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 12:12
Well Jeju(Cheju) is a little different drawing influences from Korea, Mongolia, and Japan, but the rest of Korea is basically Korean and people from Jeju consider themselves the same as a Korean in say Seoul.

Well, Inner Mongolia, Tibet, East Turkestan etc are within influences of Chinese sovereignty and people from those places mostly consider themselves to be Chinese as much a person in Beijing considers himself or herself Chinese. Its the same concept. Chinese is not applied on the ethnic level, but also on the nationality level. In fact, to apply it in the ethnic level you would have to say Han Chinese, Tibetan Chinese, Taiwanese Chinese (the aborigines in Taiwan) etc etc.
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 14:04
Hmm...I think I explained Jeju Island wrong.  What you would call aborigionese or natives of the island do not or no longer exist.  So it would be wrong to call them an ethnic minority. 
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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 14:18
My Korean professor told me that Jeju has a slightly different culture. He said that a common conception about Jeju men is that they like to drink a lot and that the women do a lot of work for the men...(sounds pretty bad...)...
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 15:20
Haha actually let's put it this way.  In Korea society is dominated by men.  Men go out to work while the women stay at home and watch the children.  Therefore men are seen as superior. 

In Jeju the women go out to work and the men stay at home and watch the children.  Therefore the women are seen as superior. 
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 15:29

"In Korea society is dominated by men.  Men go out to work while the women stay at home and watch the children.  Therefore men are seen as superior.  "

In Hong Kong, guys take orders from the girls and the girls don't do anything but shopping

 



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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 15:50

I would like to look after children while my wife goes out to work, but my Mom told me that she would disown me if I do that...

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 15:56

One thing I learned from my experience is that it is not wise to treat a girl too well because if you do so, she will get used to it and take everything for granted.

Be an ass, and you get all the girls. Sorry, this is off topic.



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  Quote battleaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 18:21
Originally posted by sephodwyrm

Since Tibet, Eastern Turkestan, inner Mongolia etc isn't even independent, why would a state that shares the same blood, heritage, language etc want to be independent?

I think that's the Chinese argument. Separatism is not tolerated in the Chinese psyche.

yeah, i know that is the chinese argument, but i think it is hypocritical in a sense....you cannot have it both ways.

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  Quote battleaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 18:24


Well, Inner Mongolia, Tibet, East Turkestan etc are within influences of Chinese sovereignty and people from those places mostly consider themselves to be Chinese as much a person in Beijing considers himself or herself Chinese. Its the same concept. Chinese is not applied on the ethnic level, but also on the nationality level. In fact, to apply it in the ethnic level you would have to say Han Chinese, Tibetan Chinese, Taiwanese Chinese (the aborigines in Taiwan) etc etc. [/QUOTE]

when you have occupied a place for 50 years, you run all the schools, and you teach only your version of history at school, of course you are going to get quite a few people who buy into it. that is not the dispute here; the dispute is whether the entire occupation is legitimate from the start.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 18:34

"when you have occupied a place for 50 years, you run all the schools, and you teach only your version of history at school, of course you are going to get quite a few people who buy into it. that is not the dispute here; the dispute is whether the entire occupation is legitimate from the start. "

The British occupied Hong Kong for 155 years. They ran all the schools, and they only taught their version of history at school. Yet, they didn't get that many people (if there were any at all) who bought into it.

No one in Hong Kong did, do consider himself/herself as a British although many of them are British by nationality.



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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 19:26
More tensions are rising...In this case I think it's a bit ridiculous.

Taken from http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200412/kt2004120322125510160 .htm






  China Issues Postage Stamps on Koguryo Relics


By Park Song-wu
Staff Reporter

The Seoul government on Friday said that China has recently issued postage stamps featuring historic relics of Koguryo, heralding another round of disputes over the ancient Korean kingdom.

The stamps, published in two designs, each include images of tombs and murals located in Jian, Jilin Province, northeastern China.

Seoul is trying to find out Beijings true intention behind the move, an official said. ``We understand that China has recently published the stamps on Koguryo relics to celebrate their registration on the world heritage list, he said.

But diplomatic experts in Seoul said China is apparently trying to play up its current sovereignty over a portion of the ancient kingdom, set up by hunting tribes that ruled much of modern day North Korea and Chinese Manchuria from 37 B.C. to A.D. 668.

Tombs and murals of the ancient Korean kingdom in China and North Korea were added to UNESCOs list of world heritage at the same time in July.

The first round of diplomatic row between the neighboring countries ended in August when they reached a five-point ``verbal understanding on the Koguryo issue with China promising it would no longer attempt to misrepresent the Korean kingdoms history in its school textbooks.

Beijing has made efforts to lay claim to Koguryos history through a systematic campaign, behind which many experts suggest is a fear that one day the 2 million ethnic Koreans within Chinas borders, better known as ``Chosonjok,'' will support a ``greater Korea'' after reunification of the peninsula in the future.

The stamps could reignite a diplomatic feud between the two countries as the Seoul government has already set aside a budget for issuing its own commemorative stamps featuring Koguryo relics on July 1 next year, officials said.



It's talking about a sensitve matter...but come on...it's a bunch of stamps.


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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 21:10

So maybe China should not have the plum blossom on our stamps because the plum blossom is not the Chinese national flower?

I personally feel that people are blowing this matter way beyond its rightful proportions.

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 02:41

Hey Seph,

    That's right.  It's blown out of proportion.  And the party that is probably the most instrumental in blowing this out of proportion is the Chinese government.  I'm disappointed with how they are handling this.  If it's just a squabbling between some nationalist nuts from either side, let them squabble.  But when the Chinese government does it, it's certainly not due to nationalistic pride.  There's an agenda, and this agenda, I believe, isn't necessarily antagonistic to the Koreans: China is facing the reality of a multi-ethnic nationality.  Similar to how the US has to recognize the contribution of various ethnic groups, China is going in that direction.  But it seems China is either making the wrong moves or it wants more than that: if China merely wants to give credit to the small Korean-Chinese population, they could simply trace their contribution as Korean-Chinese.  Koguryo, however, lies outside of the Korean-Chinese experience.  It's like claiming that the ancient Cherokee nation was actually a part of US history -- just ain't making sense.  I know a lot of people here have an axe to grind against China (which is among a few oft critiqued entity on these boards,) but in this particular case, I believe the Koreans have a good case -- or at least the Chinese have a bad one.

Peace,

Michael

12-3-2004

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 10:53
I agree with Mengtzu and Seph...although this is a conterversial and sensitive issue...I mean come on...it's a bunch of fricken stamps.
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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 14:37

There's gotta be some form of 3rd party behind this. Chinese and Koreans are like neighbors and brothers. Dude, we covered each other's rear when situations become desperate, though sometimes we spent time and blood trying to kill each other. But hey, it is not within the Korean or Chinese interest to be hostile against each other.

I can only think of Japan or the US trying to blow this matter up. They're the only ones that can benefit from antagonisms between Koreans and Chinese. I hope both sides can see more clearly about this matter and instead of monopolizing history, acknowledge that it is as mutually shared experience and work on it together.

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 17:51
Here's an interesting article I found...

Koguryo part of China?

Mark Byington byington at fas.harvard.edu  Sat Jan 3 00:18:17 EST 2004
-------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------
Dear List,

I would like to offer some additional comments on this very interesting thread. First, the provincial museum of Jilin (and all other museums in that province) presently give Koguryo's dates as 37 BC to 668. It does not surprise me to hear that the signs read 37 BC to 427 when Gari Ledyard visited in 1986 - this, I believe, was a conscious gesture to North Korean
sensitivities. As noted in a previous posting, the fact that Koguryo territories straddled the current Yalu River border between China and North Korea, making Koguryo into an minority nationality of China's distant past involved some problems. If Koguryo was part of China, what message does that send to Pyongyang today? For a while scholars in China tried to skirt the issue by offering a kind of compromise, first proposed in 1981 (I believe) by none other than Tan Qixiang, of Fudan University.
Tan suggested that Koguryo be considered part of China's history from 37 BC until 427, and as part of Korean history afterward, when its capital was in P'yongyang. I strongly suspect that the museum placards that Prof. Ledyard saw were a reflection of these times, when academic interchange between China and North Korea was more frequent. By the early 1990s, and especially after the explosive exchange between Chinese and North Korean scholars in 1993, such a compromise was probably no longer seen as necessary. By about 1995 (by my own observations) there was no longer much of a North Korean academic presence in Jilin Province.

As John Jamieson has pointed out, part of Koguryo (Gaogouli) was a part of what is now the PRC, and its place in the regional history of Dongbei must of course be acknowledged. But I would suggest that there are some qualitative differences in the ways that Koguryo is understood in China and in the Koreas. First, and not surprisingly, Koguryo's significance in Chinese history textbooks is limited primarily to the regional history of the Northeast. Students studying Chinese history in Yunnan would probably never have heard of it (so I assume - please correct me if I'm mistaken). Second, regional identity notwithstanding, I would estimate that nine out of ten people on the streets of Changchun would offer only a puzzled expression if the name Koguryo were mentioned (not including ethnic Koreans, of course). South of the Yalu one would be hard pressed to find anyone with more than a grade school education who couldn't tell us something about Koguryo. In China, only if one goes to Ji'an or Huanren, sites of old Koguryo capitals, would the majority of the population likely know what Koguryo was. Koguryo is, in short, part of the regional history of the Northeast, but, I argue, it is not significantly implanted in the cultural identity of the average Han Chinese in the Northeast.

All of this might suggest only that Koguryo is a more significant component in Korean national sentiments than in Chinese, and given Koguryo's place in Korean historiography, this is not surprising. But I think there are several levels to the Chinese treatments of Koguryo, and it may be useful to distinguish between Koguryo as part of the regional history of the Northeast, and a primarily political element, associated with territorial concerns, that underlies much (but not all) of what is currently written about Koguryo in Chinese newspapers and academic journals. (I do not, however, suggest that Korean treatments of Koguryo are free of
political elements!) I also stand by my original statement that the arguments offered for proving that Koguryo was a minority nationality of early China (as opposed to its being part of the regional history of Dongbei) are both defensive and historically weak - one need only read the many papers on the topic written by Sun Jinji and Zhang Boquan, the two most vocal and articulate proponents of the "Chinese Koguryo" position, to illustrate my claim.

What many find objectionable in this is the insistence of some Chinese scholars of "proving" that Koguryo was Chinese - not just a state that once occupied part of what is now Dongbei, but an indivisible part of early China. This view results in a denial of the Korean association with Koguryo, and its "proving" necessitates a serious warping of history. Why don't these scholars (and, again, not ALL Chinese scholars hold this view!) simply admit that Koguryo was its own state, that Koreans also view it as part of their own past, but since its history is part of the history of the Northeast, it belongs also to the regional history of a part of China? Part of the answer is that Koguryo must take its place with all other ancient neighboring states and peoples in the current view that makes those states and peoples out to be minority nationalities of early China.
Another reason, closely associated with the first, is that a solid claim (loudly stated, if not convincingly proven) to Koguryo and its territories, at least those north of the Yalu, are viewed in China as necessary to ensure the security of its borders in the Northeast. A simple recognition of Koguryo as part of the regional history of the Northeast would not accomplish this objective.

Mark Byington

(Source : http://koreaweb.ws/pipermail/koreanstudies_koreaweb.ws/2004- January/004061.html)


Note he uses the word Dongbei instead of Manchuria...*tear...Kulong would be proud.



Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 21:34
After 1400-1500 years the chinese have not gotten over the fact that Koguryo kicked their butts as Sui and Tang.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:59

Hey Mongke,

    I dunno about that.  =)  Most Chinese (like myself) don't even know enough about that part of history to get or not get over it.  What this is about is mostly politics as far as the Mainland government is concerned.

Peace,

Michael

12-6-2004

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 20:54

"The British occupied Hong Kong for 155 years. They ran all the schools, and they only taught their version of history at school. Yet, they didn't get that many people (if there were any at all) who bought into it. "

 

They never taught the Hong Kong people that they were British which is the major difference. The British form of occupation was imperialistic, China's was nationalistic, and obvious when people are treated equal they are going to buy it. And thats not a bad thing since its the sum that matter, afterall, nationalism is quite irrelevant to one's life, its cultural, and whatever you're brought up you like that country. The sum is the same, but if their life quality improves, then its positive.

"1400-1500 years the chinese have not gotten over the fact that Koguryo kicked their butts as Sui and Tang"

 

Considering Tang conquered Koguryo, there is nmothing to get over with, add to the fact that modern China is almost completely different from ancient ones, this hypothesis is not even feasibly plausible.

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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 21:02

"Well, Inner Mongolia, Tibet, East Turkestan etc are within influences of Chinese sovereignty and people from those places mostly consider themselves to be Chinese "

So it's true? The Tibetans, Mongolians, ect... in China doesn't want independence? A lot of newspapers here talk about how everybody in China want independence, but somehow I seriously doubt it.

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