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Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

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Gubook Janggoon View Drop Down
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
    Posted: 19-Oct-2004 at 21:44
Hi...found a good site about Koguryo...lots of good pictures and ect....It's basically pro-Korean but if that doesn't float your boat, the pictures are still good quality...most of it is in English.

Basically you can see a lot of the Tomb Murals in good detail.
http://goguryeo.org/english/


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  Quote Korean Patriot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 09:20

China should stop, they are only looking for trouble.

We Koreans can't prove that Koguryo empire is our because of North and South divided. In South Korea, there are only tombs of Silla, Gaya and Baekje, however in North Korea, there are lots of Koguryo tombs and paintings. If we South Koreans wants to study Koguryo history, the only place we can go is China. But China knows this very well, and they aren't dumb, they are cunning. They close off the tombs and don't let us South Koreans study it. They are scared that we might prove them wrong, and they do know that they are wrong. The only way Korea can prove China wrong at this is to reunite and become one Korea again. China fears this greatly and no one and deny this.

Korean hostory is unknown to most
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 17:06

God you look like a smurf...

We Koreans can't prove that Koguryo empire is our because of North and South divided. In South Korea, there are only tombs of Silla, Gaya and Baekje, however in North Korea, there are lots of Koguryo tombs and paintings. If we South Koreans wants to study Koguryo history, the only place we can go is China. But China knows this very well, and they aren't dumb, they are cunning. They close off the tombs and don't let us South Koreans study it. They are scared that we might prove them wrong, and they do know that they are wrong. The only way Korea can prove China wrong at this is to reunite and become one Korea again. China fears this greatly and no one and deny this.

Prove that China is doing actions according to your words

Grrr..
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 20:43

"China should stop, they are only looking for trouble.

We Koreans can't prove that Koguryo empire is our because of North and South divided. In South Korea, there are only tombs of Silla, Gaya and Baekje, however in North Korea, there are lots of Koguryo tombs and paintings. If we South Koreans wants to study Koguryo history, the only place we can go is China. But China knows this very well, and they aren't dumb, they are cunning. They close off the tombs and don't let us South Koreans study it. They are scared that we might prove them wrong, and they do know that they are wrong. The only way Korea can prove China wrong at this is to reunite and become one Korea again. China fears this greatly and no one and deny this. "

Most of we Chinese are as nervous and emotionally attached to the issue of Taiwan's independence. Mainland China and Taiwan share the same blood, same cultural heritage, same language, same people, same everything.

Do you know how it feels to us while supporting Taiwan's seperatists?

Besides, I agree that the level of patriotism among Korean people is something that we Chinese do not have. That's something we should learn from.

Throughout the history of China, it's all been fighting among different states and among different people. The whole Taiwan-China issue has been repeated 10000000000 times in history. Such as spring and autumn period, warring states period, three kingdom period, five dynasty and sixteen kingdoms period, five dynasty and ten kingdom period, the Northern Song and Liao period, the Ming Taiwan and Qing Mainland issue.

But, it doesn't change the fact the Taiwan is part of China especailly in terms of culture and heritage.

China is the origin of East Asian civilization. That's something no one can deny. Even the Japanese culture is based upon the Chinese culture. Ancient Korean documents were in Chinese. The Japanese language itself is partly Chinese. The ancient Korean kingdoms were all at some point occupied, dominated, or were under Chinese's adminstration. On the other hand, at some points of history they were relatively self efficient. But all of which were under the influence of Chinese culture.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 20:57

"Gando was like a juicy piece of steak a thief throws to dogs when he robs a house. The steak is good, but should you take it, or can one enjoy it honorably after knowing that the person who threw you the steak robbed and killed your family? "

Are you refering China as a dog?

That's something that I will not take.

Beside, I have never learned that China signed a treaty with Japan to acquire Korea. All I was taught in school was that China signed a treaty with Japan to cede Korea to Japan after the defeat of Sino-Japanese War of 1894, which means that Korea was under China's influencial level of control before the defeat by the Japanese. Japan had to ask China to recognize Korea's independence and they, in term, started invading Korea.

Be careful with your tone and wording. The last thing you want to do in your life is to insult Chinese.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 21:23
Originally posted by coolstorm

"China should stop, they are only looking for trouble.

We Koreans can't prove that Koguryo empire is our because of North and South divided. In South Korea, there are only tombs of Silla, Gaya and Baekje, however in North Korea, there are lots of Koguryo tombs and paintings. If we South Koreans wants to study Koguryo history, the only place we can go is China. But China knows this very well, and they aren't dumb, they are cunning. They close off the tombs and don't let us South Koreans study it. They are scared that we might prove them wrong, and they do know that they are wrong. The only way Korea can prove China wrong at this is to reunite and become one Korea again. China fears this greatly and no one and deny this. "

Most of we Chinese are as nervous and emotionally attached to the issue of Taiwan's independence. Mainland China and Taiwan share the same blood, same cultural heritage, same language, same people, same everything.

Do you know how it feels to us while supporting Taiwan's seperatists?

Besides, I agree that the level of patriotism among Korean people is something that we Chinese do not have. That's something we should learn from.

Throughout the history of China, it's all been fighting among different states and among different people. The whole Taiwan-China issue has been repeated 10000000000 times in history. Such as spring and autumn period, warring states period, three kingdom period, five dynasty and sixteen kingdoms period, five dynasty and ten kingdom period, the Northern Song and Liao period, the Ming Taiwan and Qing Mainland issue.

But, it doesn't change the fact the Taiwan is part of China especailly in terms of culture and heritage.

China is the origin of East Asian civilization. That's something no one can deny. Even the Japanese culture is based upon the Chinese culture. Ancient Korean documents were in Chinese. The Japanese language itself is partly Chinese. The ancient Korean kingdoms were all at some point occupied, dominated, or were under Chinese's adminstration. On the other hand, at some points of history they were relatively self efficient. But all of which were under the influence of Chinese culture.



What does this have to do with the subject?

[/QUOTE]

"Gando was like a juicy piece of steak a thief throws to dogs when he robs a house. The steak is good, but should you take it, or can one enjoy it honorably after knowing that the person who threw you the steak robbed and killed your family? "

Are you refering China as a dog?

That's something that I will not take.

Beside, I have never learned that China signed a treaty with Japan to acquire Korea. All I was taught in school was that China signed a treaty with Japan to cede Korea to Japan after the defeat of Sino-Japanese War of 1894, which means that Korea was under China's influencial level of control before the defeat by the Japanese. Japan had to ask China to recognize Korea's independence and they, in term, started invading Korea.

Be careful with your tone and wording. The last thing you want to do in your life is to insult Chinese.
[/QUOTE]

I think he meant it more as an idiom...and about Gando...When the treaty happened Qing agreed to recognize Japanese "Influence" in Korea and Japan agreed for the Koreans to drop all claims to Gando (Jiando).


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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 04:38

Originally posted by from this very thread.. read people!!

in 1900's, Japan takes over diplomacy of Korea, and in 1909, signs the Gando(Jiandao) agreement with Qing, in which the region is given to Qing in return for some previledges in Manchuria, including the right to put down a railroad there.

after 1910, when Japan annexed Korea, independence movement moved into that region, because although it was now part of Qing, most of the people were Korean.

with Japan's surrender in 1945, all of its gains in territories and all the treaties it made is cancelled, including the 1909 Gando agreement."

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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 06:23
Originally posted by I/eye

Originally posted by from this very thread.. read people!!

in 1900's, Japan takes over diplomacy of Korea, and in 1909, signs the Gando(Jiandao) agreement with Qing, in which the region is given to Qing in return for some previledges in Manchuria, including the right to put down a railroad there.

after 1910, when Japan annexed Korea, independence movement moved into that region, because although it was now part of Qing, most of the people were Korean.

with Japan's surrender in 1945, all of its gains in territories and all the treaties it made is cancelled, including the 1909 Gando agreement."

I just have to say.... you are sig picture is "so cute" indeed!!!!  They are SO CUTE!!!!

Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 06:47

Mainland China and Taiwan share the same blood, same cultural heritage, same language, same people, same everything.

What makes you think that's so?  Who defines ethnicity?

China is the origin of East Asian civilization. That's something no one can deny

No.  Korean civilization originated from Choson, Up in the Manchus, to Pyongyang, while China started from the Yellow sea

Maybe you mean China made the most influences, which is correct

The ancient Korean kingdoms were all at some point occupied, dominated, or were under Chinese's adminstration

I dont remember all korean kingdoms being under Chinese administration on a physical level.  Only some.  But not all.

Beside, I have never learned that China signed a treaty with Japan to acquire Korea. All I was taught in school was that China signed a treaty with Japan to cede Korea to Japan after the defeat of Sino-Japanese War of 1894, which means that Korea was under China's influencial level of control before the defeat by the Japanese. Japan had to ask China to recognize Korea's independence and they, in term, started invading Korea.

china to recognize Korea= hands off Korea so I can swallow it alone.  That is the basis of Japanese imperialism.  Nothing significant to do with the falling Qing Dynasty.

Grrr..
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 23:47

"No.  Korean civilization originated from Choson, Up in the Manchus, to Pyongyang, while China started from the Yellow sea"

 

Chosun is in all probability a kingdom founded by Ji Fa Zi, an important subject of the Shang who turned to Zhou and was enfeoffed a territory which became Chosun.

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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 23:50

I would rather the 2 nations stop bickering and work on the histories together in a friendly manner.

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 02:48

Hey all,

    At least there is one sane person here (Seph.)  Y'all make us Asians look extremely petty.  Everyone else has moved on to a new discourse about nationalism, and you are still using paradigms reminiscient of the 1950s America.  Gubuk, I thought you're quite above all this, you're one of the last persons I expect to be debating about this, bro.

Peace,

Michael

11-22-2004

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  Quote Korean Patriot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 10:51

OK, maybe what I wrote was not very clear, anyway. We cannot work on this history part in a friendly manner, because Koreans cannot get enough proof to prove the Chinese wrong. They closed the tombs of Koguryo and won't let anyone in. They are even letting tomb robber come and rob important things. If Koguryo was Chinese, they wouldn't let these things happen. The angry people about the robbery is us Koreans. Because its our history, and the Chinese don't really care. Why? Because Koguryo isn't Chinese. Even though Koguryo did adopt lots of Chinese things, China also adopted lots of things from other empirs or civilization. Its a normal thing to adopt things, and the Chinese are saying that since Koguryo had some Chinese stuff, like the Chinese characters.

Why don't you Chinese claim Silla and other Korean empires as theirs? Silla used Chinese characters. Even now we write Chinese characters...

Korean hostory is unknown to most
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 14:36

Hey Korean Patriot,

    I for one don't agree with making Koguryo a part of Chinese history.  To me it's not even about whether Tang controlled Koguryo, Koguryo defeated Tang, or whatever happened -- it's a battle of semantics, so honestly I think the argument that it is Chinese is entirely moot from a historical point of view.  That being said, let's put one thing in perspective: when Korean patriots were travelling in Manchuria carrying banners saying that the Koreans are taking over (I kid you not, but not that this should be surprising =) ), it's not unthinkable that China became wary.  Keep in mind that PRC government is extremely paranoid.

    If you still don't realize the actual premise underlying the Chinese argument, here it is: it really has nothing to do with whether or not China once controlled Koguryo.  The real problem here is that the social construct "Chinese" is ambiguous: it has never been just "Han" people perhaps except in certain periods, and throughout history, "Chinese" is a hybrid people.  Neither is the boundary of China static.  Now that 1) some Koreans are a part of Chinese population, and 2) half of historical Koguryo is within the border of China, some Chinese "official historians" are claiming that Koguryo was a part of Chinese history under the pretext of a "greater Chinese identity."

    Now needless to say I don't buy this argument.  The fact that there are Italian Americans doesn't mean Italian history is American history.  The fact that California is a part of America doesn't mean Mexican history is American history.  Histories of various people often overlap, but to claim a history in the situation of an overlap is faulty logic.  But I hope this nonetheless helps you understand why it's Koguryo in particular.  If I were you I would just ignore the so called "Chinese historians" for the sake of sanity.  I can almost assure you that the majority of Chinese either 1) maintain the traditional understanding that Koguryo is ancient Korea, or 2) don't care enough about the Korea to care about Koguryo.

Peace,

Michael

11-22-2004



Edited by MengTzu
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 17:05

They closed the tombs of Koguryo and won't let anyone in.

Oh my god my good korean friend, please provide sources to prove your statement. 

Chosun is in all probability a kingdom founded by Ji Fa Zi, an important subject of the Shang who turned to Zhou and was enfeoffed a territory which became Chosun.

 

I don't know...see, there are too many different sources that makes up different wrap ups on ancient history.  Like some say there was a country named Baedal whose people founded Choson and stuff like that.  (btw, Choson wasn't made 6BC or like that as some books claim)

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 18:04
Originally posted by MengTzu

Hey all,

    At least there is one sane person here (Seph.)  Y'all make us Asians look extremely petty.  Everyone else has moved on to a new discourse about nationalism, and you are still using paradigms reminiscient of the 1950s America.  Gubuk, I thought you're quite above all this, you're one of the last persons I expect to be debating about this, bro.

Peace,

Michael

11-22-2004



Ummm...I wasn't debating....someone got pissed off b/c Eye used an anaology that compared China to a dog (in a non offensive way) and I was explaining it to them...I don't recall getting back into this....
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 00:09

Hey Gubuk,

    Don't sweat.  See P.M.

Peace,

Michael

11-22-2004

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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 00:12

Originally posted by MengTzu

At least there is one sane person here (Seph.)  Y'all make us Asians look extremely petty.  Everyone else has moved on to a new discourse about nationalism, and you are still using paradigms reminiscient of the 1950s America.  Gubuk, I thought you're quite above all this, you're one of the last persons I expect to be debating about this, bro.

what did I do(am I incl. in the 'y'all?')? the 2 previous posters were misinformed about the Gando treaty so I merely posted the facts

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Ummm...I wasn't debating....someone got pissed off b/c Eye used an anaology that compared China to a dog (in a non offensive way) and I was explaining it to them...I don't recall getting back into this....

it was Moonster's analogy, to which coolstorm reacted

Originally posted by hansioux

I just have to say.... you are sig picture is "so cute" indeed!!!!  They are SO CUTE!!!!

 they are, aren't they?

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 00:53
Originally posted by I/eye

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Ummm...I wasn't debating....someone got pissed off b/c Eye used an anaology that compared China to a dog (in a non offensive way) and I was explaining it to them...I don't recall getting back into this....

it was Moonster's analogy, to which coolstorm reacted



Sorry about that mate.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 01:46

Hey I/eye,

    What I pmed Gubuk I say to you too: I wasn't interested at all by this topic to figure out who is really a part of the debate.  I merely said it to deter the sane ones from being a part of it.  Your posts are always well balanced, so you have nothing to worry about (though I think we should all just ignore the trolls.)

Peace,

Michael

11-23-2004

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