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Kashmiri genetics

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kashmiri genetics
    Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 20:59

Isn't it possible it could be that Arabs could also have entered Kashmir?  It was a Muslim state for a very long time, and still is.  Many Jewish Arabs converted to Islam as well and it could be a descendant of that. 

The more complex we hypothesize, the more outrageous they get.  There are many people in South Asia who have some sort of Semitic ancestry.  One of my Afghan friends realized from his maternal DNA that one of his ancestors was Arab...thats not to mention all the "Sayeds" that are prevalent from Iran to India.
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 23:06

Peace Ramakrishna, I well appreciate your sensitivities on this matter. You are aware of what is presently happening in Kashmir, and so am I. Unfortunately what neither of us says is going to make the difference. I agree the tranquility of the area has been disturbed; one needs to find solutions that resolve rather than further divide.

 I am telling of possible causes for immigration away from  Semitic areas thousands of years ago, and not Biblical theology as you suggest. I must agree with you, Kashmir has nothing to do with Biblical beliefs. The bulk of evidence shows a group of displaced people who came to settle down into the arms of Mother India. They carried on their cultural traditions from pre-biblical times in a peaceful dwelling place.

 In response to what Afghanan said; Isn't it possible it could be that Arabs could also have entered Kashmir? Your use of the term Arab is questionable. Semitic is the proper term when talking about those of the Ancient World. The Muslims arose in 700 AD as a religion and not a race of people, then set out to conquer the world in the name of the Prophet. They did enter into India and Kashmir but their presence had nothing at all to do with the religions or the earlier races of people that lived there. 



Edited by elenos - 28-Jun-2007 at 23:11
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 00:37

Very true elenos, but my reference to the Arabs was specifically their semitic ancestry, as many Muslim Arabs were before Pagan or Jewish semites.

In fact among Afghans, many Afghans also claim Arab/Sayed" or "Pir Saheb" ancestry which relates them to a certain prestigious Muslim Saint, usually of Sayed descent.  And ofcourse we know that Afghans also conquered Kashmir and many soliders stayed on or intermarried in Kashmir.
 
This would be more logical than a substantial jewish migration theory into Kashmir.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 02:37

If I gave you a coin marked as coming from before Mohammed, I would be cheating you for the coin is an obvious forgery. We know when the Prophet was born and it is totally impossible for any Muslim saint to come from before that time! Lets get this straight, I am not talking about a Jewish migration but a Semitic migration of displaced Palestinian settlers fleeing from those that came in and took over their city. This particular incident happened over a thousand years before the time of Mohammed.  

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 09:09

About "Arabs entering Kashmir", I have not mentioned, but it was Afghanan. Anyway he reponded and you too.

I Thank your sentiments.

When reference is made about Kalhana, it was questioned. Therefore, people of Kashmir cannot go like that forgetting their history. As fort as India is concerned, it is very important place.

I mentioned about "biblical theology", because you refered to certain specific graves and all along with "Eden".

One has to come out with facts, if "pre-biblical time" is referred to.

Sayyads / Pirs have been here in Soputh India also, but they are considered as "caste".
 
Semitic factor need not be brought to Kaskmir. Again, Quadiyan Movement has also made a great fuss about it. It is just exploiting the sentiments.
 
As you rightly mention, let us not divide Kashmiris further, when they are trying to come together.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 09:24

Facts? Certainly. The Kashmiri people wore shawls with long tassels, woven from goat hair and wool, first mentioned in 300 B.C. then in 1100 A.D. (In the 19th century these distinctive shawls became a fashion item in Europe. France and Britain established mechanized shawl industries with the most famous centre at Paisley in Scotland. Like Cashmere sweaters the Paisley designs are of Kashmiri origin. The copies proved more successful and the ancient textile industry in Kashmir collapsed around 1870.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 10:37
Thanks you for all the contributions everyone is making.

I'm sorry for not answering any questions that may have been directed to me, if you could quote them again, I will be glad to answer as best as I can.

There have been records of Afghans in kashmir due to its close proximity to Afghanistan, but as far as I'm aware kashmiris did not mix with Afghans. Afghans ruled kashmir for around 50 years, they were oppressive and intolerant even towards muslims (from stories I have heard).

As far as my families looks go, we look pretty typical kashmiri, light skin with a rosy complexion, green/blue/hazel eyes and random hair colours (mum is a natural red head). We do not look arab at all (in my opinion), but are very often mistaken for turkish.

Kashmiris are also very distinct looking from Afghans.(features wise)

Also about the semitic assumptions we're making,  here is some information that came along with my results.

'A major sub-branch of Haplogroup J is Haplogroup J2. Haplogroup J2 is characterized by a marker in the Y-DNA called M172. The presence of the M172 marker is unique to all individuals who descended from this line.

Haplogroup J2 is found in North Africa, the Middle East and southern Europe.

  • 20% in southern Italy
  • 10% in southern Spain
  • 30% in Jewish

In particular, Haplogroup J2 is found at high levels in Greece, Italy , Turkey, Middle-Eastern populations (Arabs and Kurds), and in the Caucasus region, a region in Eurasia bordered on the south by Anatolia and Iran in Asia and on the west by the Black Sea, on the east by the Caspian Sea and on the north by the European portion of Russia.'


Since it is not only limited to Arabs and semites, perhaps the history of kashmir could be broadened to include non arabs too?


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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 18:34

Koshur, you originally asked about this blood test you did that claimed you were related to the Kohens the traditional tribe of Jewish priests. I have gone to great lengths to research the history behind the situation in Kashmir. For what its worth I say you could relate to the Canaanites a pre-biblical group of people.


Beforehand I had no opinion at all but your case alone convinces me these stupid blood tests are an abuse of human rights. Their original medical purposes are being abused by certain religious interest groups to give a sinister and twisted view of genetics with unacceptable racial implications.

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 19:48
Elenos, it is good that you hit the point -
 
"Beforehand I had no opinion at all but your case alone convinces me these stupid blood tests are an abuse of human rights. Their original medical purposes are being abused by certain religious interest groups to give a sinister and twisted view of genetics with unacceptable racial implications".
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 10:08
Originally posted by Koshur

Thanks you for all the contributions everyone is making.

I'm sorry for not answering any questions that may have been directed to me, if you could quote them again, I will be glad to answer as best as I can.

There have been records of Afghans in kashmir due to its close proximity to Afghanistan, but as far as I'm aware kashmiris did not mix with Afghans. Afghans ruled kashmir for around 50 years, they were oppressive and intolerant even towards muslims (from stories I have heard).

As far as my families looks go, we look pretty typical kashmiri, light skin with a rosy complexion, green/blue/hazel eyes and random hair colours (mum is a natural red head). We do not look arab at all (in my opinion), but are very often mistaken for turkish.

Kashmiris are also very distinct looking from Afghans.(features wise)

Also about the semitic assumptions we're making,  here is some information that came along with my results.

'A major sub-branch of Haplogroup J is Haplogroup J2. Haplogroup J2 is characterized by a marker in the Y-DNA called M172. The presence of the M172 marker is unique to all individuals who descended from this line.

Haplogroup J2 is found in North Africa, the Middle East and southern Europe.

  • 20% in southern Italy
  • 10% in southern Spain
  • 30% in Jewish

In particular, Haplogroup J2 is found at high levels in Greece, Italy , Turkey, Middle-Eastern populations (Arabs and Kurds), and in the Caucasus region, a region in Eurasia bordered on the south by Anatolia and Iran in Asia and on the west by the Black Sea, on the east by the Caspian Sea and on the north by the European portion of Russia.'


Since it is not only limited to Arabs and semites, perhaps the history of kashmir could be broadened to include non arabs too?
 
So if J2 is found in the Middle East, Italy, Spain, Turkey, and elsewhere, when did these people migrate, and from where did they originate?  Was it in Anatolia or Eurasia?  Is it possible that you could have Turkic or Turkish blood?  Turks and Turkic people have a long history in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 20:36

Quite true, Afghanan, The blood tests may have some value for the group as a whole, but can only suggest a range of places and situations about where a family may have come from. Individual heritage covers many places where unexpected events happen to alter the genetic pattern.

 I hear many folk tales of a peasant boy finding he was descended from an ancient bloodline He gets crowned king and rules wisely and peacefully for a very long time. His blessed name is still revered among the masses and his enlightened descendants still bring wealth and prosperity to the state. What would have been the outcome if a blood test revealed common blood? The people rise up in revolt and the country is wracked by poverty and despair for bitter fighting still takes place among those whose blood tests prove their family should have been the rightful kings?

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  Quote pathani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 22:27
kashmir of today is a really mixed place, my grandmother is from kashmir and she said her family migrated their from afghanistan. A lot of kashmiris are indeed afghan and centeral asian decent ( the muslim ones).  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 11:14
Kashmir was ruled by Tamils for a long time. i would say 80% of the kashmiri genes are Tamils.
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 20:44
Are you making this statement based on racial hypotheses or historical interpretation?
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:02
Originally posted by pathani

kashmir of today is a really mixed place, my grandmother is from kashmir and she said her family migrated their from afghanistan. A lot of kashmiris are indeed afghan and centeral asian decent ( the muslim ones).  


There are pretty much no Afghans living in the Valley of Kashmir now a days. The whole Kashmir state which has only existed for 150 years which includes Azad Kashmir, Jammu, Gilgit, Baltistan, Ladakh, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir or the so called 'Azad kashmir'. Kashmir historically for over 2000 years has only and only been the Kashmir Valley which is Indian occupied.

Kashmir Valley is not a 'really mixed' place at all. There are pashtuns in Azad kashmir, but they are not called kashmiris. Kashmiris and Pashtuns are very distinct.

Never heard of Tamils ever ruling Kashmir, would be nice to see some proof though :).
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:35
Would love to hear more about Kashmir and its traditions from you, Koshur. What a fascinating area of the world, I keep promising myself to one day go there.  What would you say is the most different about the character of the place?
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 14:17
Originally posted by Koshur

Originally posted by pathani

kashmir of today is a really mixed place, my grandmother is from kashmir and she said her family migrated their from afghanistan. A lot of kashmiris are indeed afghan and centeral asian decent ( the muslim ones).  


There are pretty much no Afghans living in the Valley of Kashmir now a days. The whole Kashmir state which has only existed for 150 years which includes Azad Kashmir, Jammu, Gilgit, Baltistan, Ladakh, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir or the so called 'Azad kashmir'. Kashmir historically for over 2000 years has only and only been the Kashmir Valley which is Indian occupied.

Kashmir Valley is not a 'really mixed' place at all. There are pashtuns in Azad kashmir, but they are not called kashmiris. Kashmiris and Pashtuns are very distinct.

Never heard of Tamils ever ruling Kashmir, would be nice to see some proof though :).
 
I could see that culturally there many not be Afghans in Kashmir today (other than the ones that invaded during Pak-Indian war), but if they dont exist in Kashmir today that means they were amalgamated into the Kashmiri ethnic fabric. If Khushal Khan and Rahman Baba spoke about Kashmir, most likely Afghans have very fond memory and many Afghans did move there in the past and have mixed with the Kashmiri people.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 07:24
J2 that you have come from Sikandar (ie Darius the great king of persia) who conquered cashmir. he is the Dzul Qarnain mentioned in the Quran.
 
To elenos: and how do you know that the semitic ancestry in Kashmir is from people came to kashmir before the time of Muhammad??
 
Muhammad ancestry is J1 as well as all the Arabs of his time who conquered as far as India.
Many arabs took refuge in India and Pakistan during the Mongol and Timur-lank invasions and J1 actually very much in Pakistan 4-7%! all those people are descendent of the Arabs of the Islamic conquest.
 
However most of the people who claim the status of Sayyed are imposters.
If you go to the FTDNA website Arabian Penincula Project you find many of the people who say they are Sayed or have Sayed names like Sayed and Hashemi and Huseini are actually not J1 but J2 and G and H ( that of India and Iran) while all the others in that project are from J1 simply because they are arabs. Muhammad and Ali ( from Hashem from Quraish from Ishmael) had all of them to be J1.
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 08:06
Originally posted by adnanmuf

To elenos: and how do you know that the semitic ancestry in Kashmir is from people came to kashmir before the time of Muhammad??


By reading the early history of the erea where many authorities claim that the early written records are close to semitic. I have already given other evidence of the clothes they wore.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 09:01
Did they have semitic language?
I know that the ancient language of the time was sanskrit.
and how dod you know that people who wore the cloth of those ancient people had the j1 haplogroup.
 
It is known that the haplotype of the people who have J1 in pakistan is identical to the haplotype of the Arabs of the Islamic conquest in 700 AD.
It is also known that the home land of the semites and J1 is in middle east There is no reason for them to be in India unless if a king Babylonian, Assyrian, etc conquered India in the past and that did not happen.
Only King Darius the Great 500 BC conquered vast parts of India and Pakistan (Sogdia)
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