Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Conflict of Umayyah and Ali

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Balain d Ibelin View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Indonesia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 197
  Quote Balain d Ibelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Conflict of Umayyah and Ali
    Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 15:06
I have some questions about it:
       -Did both sides had deployed an Army for battle?
       -Who was the name of Umayyah's ally (The Egypt Governor)?
       -Can you mention in which regions supports Ali, and which regions supports Umayyah?
       -What are the base of the 2 Sides?
"Good quality will be known among your enemies, before you ever met them my friend"Trobadourre de Crusadier Crux
Back to Top
Killabee View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 01-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 22:29
I am no Middle East history expert as I am still learning myself. But I try my best knowledge to answer your question:

1. Yes.  They both fought in the battle of Siffin. The battle was indecisive as they were stopped by the arbitrator .

2. The person that defeated Ali's force in Egypt was Amr ibn al-As. But I am not sure if he became the Governor afterward.

3. I think Iraq and most of the Arabia supported Ali. While Syria and Egypt supported Muawiya.

4.  Ali was based in Kufa, Iraq. and Muawiya was based in Damacus, Syria.


Edited by Killabee - 23-Jun-2007 at 22:31
Back to Top
Kapikulu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 14:27

AFAIK, it is said that Ali's army was stronger. But Muaviye and Amr ibn al-As had gone really ugly and far by sticking the papers of Qur'an to the top of their soldiers' spears so that Ali's army would be unable to attack them.

Then the arbitrators were selected and Ali's arbitrator was influenced and overran by the other side, and then the all the complexity began.
 
The Kharijites, supporters of neither sides, assasinated Ali, and then the rule of Umayyads began...Going till the terrible Kerbela Assasination of Ali's sons and creating the separation in Islamic worldDead
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 15:33

Hello to you all

The best book ever written on this subject was "Al-Awasim min Al-Qawasim" for Ibn Al-Arabi the scholar not ibn Arabi the Sufi philosepher. The stroy about Amr ibn Al-As and the arbitration is a big lie.
 
The battle of Siffin raged on and off for over 40 days. Both armies were well over 160 000 men and the number of dead in the lowest figures was around 40 000 from both armies. No army had the edge and no one was willing to forgo his territory so arbitration was called. During negotiations it was agreed that fighting should be stopped and both armies were to withdraw and for the next two years no one attacked the other. Even when Ali was in a terrible civil war with the Khawarij, Muawiyah, who by this time had consolidated power in the name of Ali (he never disputed Ali's legitimacy) over most lands controlled by the Caliphate, never betrayed Ali and attacked him from behind though he had the power. Actually he helped Ali and he himself was the target of the same plot that killed Ali. Also the nyth that the Umayyads cursed Ali during Friday surmon is not true.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 16:02
Originally posted by Kapikulu

AFAIK, it is said that Ali's army was stronger. But Muaviye and Amr ibn al-As had gone really ugly and far by sticking the papers of Qur'an to the top of their soldiers' spears so that Ali's army would be unable to attack them.



Yes, he was sucessfull and popular, especially after the Uthman assasination, and previous family oriented politics portrayed with massive Ummayya appointments to chief posts in the Khalifate. It is true however that he only continued the practice of Umar who relied on the Umayya clan for appointemnts because they were one of the few that ventured, and had experience with the outside world.

I forget the name of the battle, but when Muawiyahh used Qu'rans on soldiers spears the Ali faction accepted a peace settlement, and soon after he had been assasinated by the Khajiris.

He got stuck in a messed up situation due to his support base being from the Alid-to be factions, but also from the individuals tied to the murder of the previous Khalif.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 16:06
You provide a rather sympahtetic account of the Umayyads. They were not so honourable fellows, the clan solidified power against the family of Ali. The outcome of the assasination was Muawiyah taking the throne for that what it became once he took it, and moved to his own powerbase. If he had been so loyal, he would have at the very least put in a puppet Khalifah who was descendant of Ali.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 20:26
The appointment of Othman's relatives into state offices has been largely hyped. Yes, many of the rulers were his relatives but many were appointed before he did. Muawiyah was appointed by Omar and he has already gained the trust of the prophet and was one of only 10 sahaba authorized to write the Quran. His administrative abilities were well known and he fought under Khalid and Abu Ubaidah during the conquest of Syria. His choice was correct. Similarly it goes for Abdullah ibn Abi Al-Sarh and other governors. Ali held the second highest position in the Islamic government being chief justice and was Uthman's right hand. Actually several of the appointments were suggested by Ali. The problem later arised by the different positions towards the murderers of Uthman. Ali, on the orders of Uthman refused to intervene in the siege that lead to the murder of Uthman and he later came to regret it. Uthman did not want to be the one who violated the sanctity of Madinah or to call the first shot and thus he was the first to die in the civil war. Because of many complex reasons Ali had to ally himself with Uthman's killers a move that made every one, practically the entire Quraish clans even his closest relatives became his enemies. Thus the civil war began. But things must be clear, NO ONE of the Sahabah ever disputed Ali's right to the Caliphate, not even Muawiyah himself. It was a move to bring Uthman's killers to justice.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 20:48
Nevertheless, he opposed Ali, and took the Khalifate, and established a hereditary monarchy. If he did not have temporal intentions he would have perhaps taken the office of Khalifah through consent, and relieved it upon death to the next member of the community. He took the Jammat al Sunnah out of the equation by crafting the Khalifal office into a herditary one.

Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 16:39
Originally posted by es_bih

You provide a rather sympahtetic account of the Umayyads. They were not so honourable fellows, the clan solidified power against the family of Ali. The outcome of the assasination was Muawiyah taking the throne for that what it became once he took it, and moved to his own powerbase. If he had been so loyal, he would have at the very least put in a puppet Khalifah who was descendant of Ali.
I agree es,as well as the were the greatest enemy of Islam from the first day.
I can shed some light to this Argument Al-Jassas but I don;t think I can convince you so I ll write nothing.
"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
Kapikulu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2007 at 04:10
Originally posted by es_bih





I forget the name of the battle, but when Muawiyahh used Qu'rans on soldiers spears the Ali faction accepted a peace settlement, and soon after he had been assasinated by the Khajiris.


 
Battle of Sıffin ;)
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2007 at 06:28
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by es_bih

I forget the name of the battle, but when Muawiyahh used Qu'rans on soldiers spears the Ali faction accepted a peace settlement, and soon after he had been assasinated by the Khajiris.


Battle of Sıffin ;)


Yes Kardes thanks :)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.113 seconds.