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WW1 Peace Settlements

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aslanlar View Drop Down
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: WW1 Peace Settlements
    Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:28
How effective/good (or bad) do you think the WW1 peace settlements were?

1.) The Versailles Treaty. This dealt with Germany. It was neither too harsh (to cripple Germany so they couldn't attack France in the future) for Clemenceau's liking or too lenient (and so not create angry feelings by Germans) For Lloyd George or Woodrow Wilson. Possibly the biggest criticism is that Germany had to accept the "War Guilt Clause" which meant they had to accept the blame for starting the war (even though it was Austria and Serbia). One other major problem were the reperations of 6.6million gold roubles (that were never payed). It put a strain on the German economy and when they couldn't pay, the French army invaded the Rhur, an industrial area. The Weimer government supported the population to go on strike. Germany was no longer producing any goods and the government just printed money, causing hyperinflation (you might want to look at the extend of it if you havn't before, it was truly spectacular). However, Stresseman resolved this problem later on.

2.) The Treaty of Sevres. This dealt with the former Ottoman Empire. It was reducing in size to (basically) what it is today. However, one major problem was that it gave Eastern Thrace and Smyrna to Greece (although they were Turkish areas). This angered the Turkish population and resultantly, the Turks rebelled against the Treaty under the command of Ataturk. A new treaty was made, the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
(one must question why a treaty is imposed on a nation if when that nation brakes it, nobody inforces it?)

3.) The Treaty of Neuilly. This dealt with Bulgaria. Bulgaria lost a bit of land and gained a bit of land. It was relatively small in the war and thus the treaty was not too harsh. However, they imposed reparations which damaged the Bulgarian economy for years to come.

4.) The Treaty of St Germain and Trianon that delt with Austria-Hungary. Land was lost to form the new state of Czechoslovakia with 3million German and 2.5 million Slovak minority (although i'm not exactly sure on the figures, i am confident they are correct). Also, the new state of Yugoslavia was formed. A country with MANY different nationalities (it's amazing they didn't think conflict would occur?). Also, Italy had won the war. They expected land as a reward, especially from the old Austria-Hungarian empire. They got small areas on the North of Italy such as Trentino, but wanted the Dalmation Coast of Croatia. This was never given to them, but lead to the idea that it should be theirs in the future *Ahem, Corfu incident in 1923*.

Overall, what are your opinions on the WW1 Peace Settlements? Comments are welcome Big%20smile
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:51
Originally posted by aslanlar

How effective/good (or bad) do you think the WW1 peace settlements were?
 
 
Effective enough to cause another world war.Confused
     
   
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:34
Originally posted by aslanlar

Bulgaria lost a bit of land and gained a bit of land.


What land did Bulgaria gain?
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:47
All of the agreements were very punitive, and politicians lacked the intelligence and intelelctuality of their counterparts one century ago. ''This is not a peace treaty, only a truce for 20 years'' said a French officer after the signing of the Versailles Traty in 1919. To prove his prophecy, The Second War took place exactly after 20 years.
 
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:58

True, i personally had a very bad outlook on the peace-treaties. I thought it could of been just me but looks like it's not. I'm aware of the quote by the way, i like it :D It's my marshal Foch or something isn't it?

However, the league of nations must also be commented apon if we start the name the causes for a second world war, not just the peace treaties.

"What land did Bulgaria gain?"
I'm not sure of the specifics, but they gained part of the old Ottoman Empire (on the side facing Turkey) and lost some land to greece.

"effective enough to cause another world war". That (in part) could be contained within just the Treaty of Versailles. After all, that's what spurred Hitler's ambitions.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 08:17
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by aslanlar

How effective/good (or bad) do you think the WW1 peace settlements were?
 
 
Effective enough to cause another world war.Confused
 
This is comment enough I think.  Someone supposedly said "This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years." I don't know if that is what was said, but is is what happened.
 
Basically the same sides who had just fought a war that cost about 10,000,000 deaths lined up again and the result was 40 or 50,000,000.
 
 
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 08:56
I think it would be really hard for anyone to deny that it was not much of a solution at all. The whole of WWI, I think, was an increadiby harsh lesson to all Europe that a new age had arrived. Sending large amounts of troops running at each other no longer worked, brightly colored uniforms no longer worked and solving the problem by taking a ruler and drawing a new map certainly no longe worked, although one could argue that this had not in fact worked ever.
 
Set on punishing the losers (no good or bad, just the ones that won and set the rules and the ones that lost and had to swallow), the treaties completely ignored the consequenses of damaging a couple of large economies in an age in which the worlds economies had become increasingly bound up with each other, as well as the consequenses of ignoring the increase in the beliefs of nation and people that had been rising since the past century.
 
It was a complete failure.

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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 15:44

However, the aims (or Woodrow Wilsons aims) were to create a Europe with indipendant nations (thus braking up Austria-Hungary). His ideology was good too, but when set in action, it turned to a disaster. However, the new stated were (atleast attempted to be) made economically viable (thus giving Poland Danzig, a large german port). The Peacemakers had no idea about the situation in the Balkans and Eastern Europe and that's why it turned out so bad.

What about the other treaties (not just the Treaty of Versailles that was for Germany), how effective do you think they were? Although i have to ask, does anybody know the purpose of creating a Treaty if you're not going to impose it?
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 07:53
The same mistake was made in 1815, Vienna...People never learn..
We gave up your happiness
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we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 08:18
I think to judge Wilson as a naive but goodhearted peacenik who got eaten for breakfast by Clemenceau is kind of revisionist. Despite all the high principles attributed to Wilson, his first priority was to get Germany to pay the US war repairations. And it was in ensuring this happened he cheaply sold out everything else he wanted. I don't see him a lot different from any other US president, from Kennedy to Reagan. He talked about freedom and acted about money.
 
John Maynard Keynes condemnend all parties at Versailles and said denying Germany it's any capacity for economic growth would simply cause all political changes to fail, push Germany back into only one route, the one pre-war one and there would be another war in 20 years. He was 50 days out in his prediction
 


Edited by Paul - 22-Jun-2007 at 08:22
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 09:13
But it wasn't only Wilson that wanted reperations. The 6.6billion gold roubles was reparation for war damage. France needed this to rebuild the land where fighting took place. Britain needed this to pay back loans by the American Government. America wanted it's money back :)
Great cycle...
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 10:36
Originally posted by aslanlar

How effective/good(or bad)do you think the WW1 peace settlements were?
3.) The Treaty of Neuilly. This dealt with Bulgaria. Bulgaria lost a bit of land and gained a bit of land. It was relatively small in the war and thus the treaty was not too harsh. However, they imposed reparations which damaged the Bulgarian economy for years to come.


I dissagree. Bulgaria's involvment in the war based on materials and manpower compared with the Great Powers (such as Germany and France, for example) may have been more humble, but it is actually one of the countries with highest mobilisation-stress endured in the First World War. By 1918 more than 960 000 men (some souces claim more than 1 000 000) were mobilised (out of total population approx.4.3 million before the Balkan Wars), having lost more than 100 000 dead in the previous wars (First and Second Balkan wars). The treaty itself was extreamly harsh (especially in Bulgaria's battered condition after the war) and is known as the Second National Catastrophy.
The treaty of Neuilly states that (I'm not quoting):
1) Bulgaria looses Souther Dobrudja (to Romania), the Weastern Reaches and Macedon (to Serbia), Southern Thrace and the territory ceded by the Ottoman Empire to Bulgaria in 1915 (to Greece), totaling more than 11 000 square killometers. Bulgaria was supposed to be given an economic route to the Aegean Sea, but this didn't happen.
2) Bulgaria should pay contributions and reparations to Serbia, Romania and Greece in the following size:
50 000 tons of coal per year to Serbia; give away more than 120 000 live-stock to the neighbouring countries; repartaions of 2.25 billion gold franks for a period of 37 years (1/4 of of the national treasures);
3) The Bulgarian army should not exceed more than 20 000 professional soldiers, including officers and rearguard troops, plus no more 3000 border guards. Conscription is abolished and Bulgaria looses its entire Navy, Airforce and heavy equipment (with the exception of 6 moor boats for sea patrols). Bulgaria is forbidden to construct fortifications of any kind.
IIRC the treaty also acknowledged the Solun Armistice from 29th September 1918, according to which more than 100 000 troops will remain prinosers of the Entante for two years. The only beneficial clause of the trety was that it forbid the occupation of the country by Serbian and Greek troops, mainly due to the decisive defeat of the Entante forces at Doiran in September 1918 (at the same time while they broke trough at Dobro pole) and the fear that Bulgaria would continue the war if occupied.
In any case, the treaty is extreamly severe and ultimately led to Bulgaria's participation in WWII after several attempts for a peacefull revision.
   
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 12:30
Originally posted by Burdokva


The treaty of Neuilly states that (I'm not quoting):
1) Bulgaria looses Souther Dobrudja (to Romania), the Weastern Reaches and Macedon (to Serbia), Southern Thrace and the territory ceded by the Ottoman Empire to Bulgaria in 1915 (to Greece), totaling more than 11 000 square killometers. Bulgaria was supposed to be given an economic route to the Aegean Sea, but this didn't happen.
2) Bulgaria should pay contributions and reparations to Serbia, Romania and Greece in the following size:
50 000 tons of coal per year to Serbia; give away more than 120 000 live-stock to the neighbouring countries; repartaions of 2.25 billion gold franks for a period of 37 years (1/4 of of the national treasures);
3) The Bulgarian army should not exceed more than 20 000 professional soldiers, including officers and rearguard troops, plus no more 3000 border guards. Conscription is abolished and Bulgaria looses its entire Navy, Airforce and heavy equipment (with the exception of 6 moor boats for sea patrols). Bulgaria is forbidden to construct fortifications of any kind.
IIRC the treaty also acknowledged the Solun Armistice from 29th September 1918, according to which more than 100 000 troops will remain prinosers of the Entante for two years. The only beneficial clause of the trety was that it forbid the occupation of the country by Serbian and Greek troops, mainly due to the decisive defeat of the Entante forces at Doiran in September 1918 (at the same time while they broke trough at Dobro pole) and the fear that Bulgaria would continue the war if occupied.
In any case, the treaty is extreamly severe and ultimately led to Bulgaria's participation in WWII after several attempts for a peacefull revision.


Bulgaria defeated serbian and romanian armies and lost one single battle at Dobro Pole,yet they gave us a treaty as heavy as possible and left Macedonia to the serbs which began a horrible terror on the dominantly Bulgarian population(in today's FYROM part)until 1941Angry


Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 22-Jun-2007 at 12:31
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 12:54
Originally posted by aslanlar

But it wasn't only Wilson that wanted reperations. The 6.6billion gold roubles was reparation for war damage. France needed this to rebuild the land where fighting took place. Britain needed this to pay back loans by the American Government. America wanted it's money back :)
Great cycle...
 
 
I agree, but the British, French and Russians wanted to screw Germany and the history books don't pretend otherwise. It's always pretended that Wilson was somehow different, actually as the above example shows, he was the same.
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 13:06
Liudovik, sadly we didn't lost a single battle, even if other lost engaments were only on a tactical level. To be honest, we should be proud that the army held out as long as it did. When Bulgaria entered the war its only job was to knock out Serbia. When the Entante landed a French and English expeditionary corps and with Romania prepraring to enter the war, with Russia backing it up, general Zhekov asked to goverment with whom the army was supposed to fight now. He didn't get a responce. Clearly (and this is really obvious when you look into detail) the Bulgarian army wasn't prepared to take on 6 enemy armies, let alone on two opposite fronts...
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 14:16

Actually Britain didn't want Germany to be economically destroyed as germany had been a big trading partner before the war. Mostly, it wanted germanys army to be removed (like France).


As for the bulgarian nationalists here, i did say the Treaty damaged the Bulgarian economy quite severely (as it lasted "for years to come"). However, let's be honesty, it wasn't that big of a role in the war compared to the major powers and the treaty was not nearly as harsh as that for Germany. Plus, it was safe from invasion (as the powers promised) and so what's the need of a large army? Can you honestly argue for forcing the abolishment of conscription? When greece invaded Bulgaria, the Bulgarians appealed to the League of Nations and greece withdrew. Simple LOL

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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 15:04
But compared to the small countries bulgarian participation was more than brilliant.Total victories on two fronts(Serbian and Romanian) and Bulgaria managed to hold for 3 years united forces of Britain,France and Greece alone.Mobilized bulgarians were between 900 000 and 1 200 000 men.You must admid that this is an incredible achievement.Bulgaria has only one lost battle during WW1 - Dobro Pole,but in the same time managed to crush entente forces in the battle of Doiran,one of the most glorious battles in Bulgarian history.In that time none of the other balkan countries(except Ottoman empire) or small european states were able to do this.

Bulgaria suffered more economical punishments than territorial,but we lost very valuable territories like Western Thracia and Southern Dobrudja,some territoris on west and of course we couldnt take back northern Macedonia(Fyrom)which was in fact the bulgarian dream.

Edited by Krum - 22-Jun-2007 at 15:12
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 15:56
Umh, I don't see anything nationalistic about my oppinion? Bulgaria's role is more humble, yes, I haven't denied that. Yet I dare say its role is also very underappreciated. Some WWI sites and books actually don't even mention it participating in the war! In fact Bulgaria was crucial to the war plans of the Central Powers - first, it finally brought down Serbia which was draining Austro-Hungary and the latter could spent more troops against Russia. Secondly, it relieved the Ottomans, who were terrified that the Bulgarian army might suddenly decide to storm Constantinopole. And lets face it, with much of the Ottoman's strenght tied at Gallipoli they couldn't have held it off. Not to mention the Romanian front...
The Treaty of Neuilly may not be as harsh as that for the other Central Powers on paper, but compare the Bulgarian and German economic and manpower resources and you'll see what a terrible catastrophy it was.
The Petrich incident is probably the only time the United Nations (is that the english name of the organisation?) reacted decisively. And with three (if not four, depending on the current policy of Turkey) hostile states next to its boarders, which country wouldn't need an army?
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 16:04
Originally posted by Burdokva


United Nations (is that the english name of the organisation?)


League of Nations(Обществото на Народите).The United Nations(сегашното ООН) was created after the second world war.
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 20:30
I'm not sure of the name, but in the early 1920's, Greece invaded Bulgaria, however the League of Nations stopped greece and greece withdrew. It didn't need an army for then.

If you are saying the bulgarian army was as fantastic as you describe (although i must admit, they fought greatly and their role is unfortunately not acknowledged), then that's more of a reason to punish Bulgaria for Britain and France. The League of Nations was also succesful in other disputed, but that was the only one involving Bulgaria. (Though bulgaria didn't get in too much trouble :D )


Edited by aslanlar - 23-Jun-2007 at 19:30
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