Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Did Russia attack Estonia?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 9>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Russia attack Estonia?
    Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 15:49
Originally posted by DukeC

 
The little saw-off psychopath in charge in Russia probably doesn't care if people know he responsible, hell he's even threatening Europe with nukes again.
 
 
I'm really dissapointed with you attitude DukeC. I really thought that you are an objective, reasonable person. However, it looks like you are blind and deaf.
 
What made you think that Putin is a psychopat?
 
It's very bad to hear such accusations from a Western person. What would happened if majority Americans/Canadians would think like you?
 
Would you attack first in order to stop a psychopath?
 
What a madness !
 
This kind of attitude can only promote hostility and insecurity in the world.
 
You already said that attack of Russian hackers is an act of war.
 
I think it's time for you call out for the NATO responce. Someting like CRASHING FREEDOM or VICTORIOUS DEMOCRACY.
 
Yeah, let's throw Russian psychopats back to Asia, East from the Ural mountains !
 
And watch out,  you can get a greeting card from Kremlin with polonium in it.
 
KGB people are everywhere ! SOS !!!
 
LOLLOLLOL


Edited by Sarmat12 - 10-Jun-2007 at 16:11
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 16:46

Before blaming Russia in the start of WWII, let's recall that everything started with the Munich bertrayal of 1938. When "loyal Allies" France and Britain kindly offered defenceless Chezchoslovakia to Nazi Germany.

And eventually, an independent european country Chezchoslovakia was devided between Germany, Hungary and Poland.

This act is absolutely morally equal to Molotov-Rebentrop pact.

Soviet Union had been continuously agitating for the defence alliance with France and England agains Germany starting from 1938. He suggested Chezchs a military assistance against Germany in 1938 but it didn't work out.

SU was the only country that openly supported republican Spain against fascists of Franco, who were supported by Mussolini and Hitler
 
Don't you think strange, that after the start of WWII even a single French or English division bothered to move to the German border and help Poles who fought the bulk of German army?.

It simply, because they thought Hitler either would be satisfied when he gets Poland or that he would violate the Pact with SU (which he actually did 2 years later) and attack SU, that's why their involvement would be unnecessary.

From the very beginning Hitler made it clear that his main enemy would be the Soviet Union.

And although, continously, beginning from 1938 SU had been trying to conclude a defence agreement with France and England, they were reluctant to do it, because they didn't want to irritate Nazist, didn't trust SU and because they simply believed that Nazist would attack SU first.

Molotov pact was an uneasy responce to this hopeless situation. SU simply had to sign it, otherwise it would become isolated from the rest of the world. For both SU and Germany it was just a temporary measure to buy some time before the inevitable war between them starts.

Of course, this Pact was a terrible violation of International Law and had disastrous consequences for Baltic states and Poland. Which was disgusting.
 
But please, don't forget that if you want to blame anybody in the start of WWII, than France and UK are equally responcible, and their moral responcibility is even greater because they cowardly bertayed their official allies.
 
 

 

 



Edited by Sarmat12 - 10-Jun-2007 at 17:04
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 16:58
Originally posted by axeman


Well there are also other theories like Stalin wanted to attack Germany first, he hoped that Germany would be tied in France in positional war so he could strike in back.
 
Yes, that's described in Suvorov's books. Some of his points really force to search more. But I think he went too far away, so that he even wrote the exact date when this would happen.
.
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 18:52
Did Russia attack Estonia? Yup!
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 12:42
"Say hello to your president. He really surprised us...turned out to be quite a mighty man. He raped 10 women. I never expected it from him. He surprised all of us. We all envy him."
 
Putins comment to Olmert about the Israeli president say it all about the man, he's a complete pig.
 
As he was going through his very painful and public death, Litvinenko had even worse to say about him. According to Litvinenko, as head of the FSB Putin ordered the bombing of the two apartment buildings in Moscow so it could be blamed on Chechen terrorists. Carrying out an attack like this on Estonia would be totally in line with Putins character and behaviour in the past.


Edited by DukeC - 11-Jun-2007 at 12:46
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 12:58

You are crazy, DukeC.
.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 13:21
Originally posted by Anton

You are crazy, DukeC.

 
I think we only can commiserate with him, Anton. Just another innocent and poor victim of brainwash.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 11-Jun-2007 at 13:22
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 14:20

There's also evidence that the Moscow theatre hostage taking was cared out by terrorists with links to the FSB, something that now dead Anna Politkovskaya also reported on. Putin used a conflict in all likelyhood he was provoking to get people to back him. His tough on crime and terrorism stand is a joke, while in St. Petersburg he was one of the biggest crooks in politics, stealing close to $100 million, and he also has links to organized crime. 

What stability is there in Russia when the government itself has been taken over by the criminal element that caused so much violence in the last decade. And what hope for stability in the region is there with such a "man" as president in Russia.
 
Let Litvinenkos last words say it, he was a true Russian.
 
I would like to thank many people. My doctors, nurses and hospital staff who are doing all they can for me, the British police who are pursuing my case with vigour and professionalism and are watching over me and my family. I would like to thank the British government for taking me under their care. I am honoured to be a British citizen.

I would like to thank the British public for their messages of support and for the interest they have shown in my plight.

I thank my wife Marina, who has stood by me. My love for her and our son knows no bounds.

But as I lie here I can distinctly hear the beating of wings of the angel of death. I may be able to give him the slip but I have to say my legs do not run as fast as I would like. I think, therefore, that this may be the time to say one or two things to the person responsible for my present condition.

You may succeed in silencing me but that silence comes at a price. You have shown yourself to be as barbaric and ruthless as your most hostile critics have claimed.

You have shown yourself to have no respect for life, liberty or any civilised value.

You have shown yourself to be unworthy of your office, to be unworthy of the trust of civilised men and women.

You may succeed in silencing one man but the howl of protest from around the world will reverberate, Mr Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life. May God forgive you for what you have done, not only to me but to beloved Russia and its people.


Edited by DukeC - 11-Jun-2007 at 14:22
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 14:33
The dog is barking,  the caravan keeps going on.
.
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 14:43
I think I realize now why those who support Putin don't want any serious questions asked about the man and his past. His whole public persona is a total fabrication, the truth is very ugly, there's even charges he's a paedophile.
 
And in the same way that Stalin did he's trying to build a cult of personality and fear of outside threats to misdirect any close examination of who he really is. I feel sorry for the people of Russia who have to live under this despicable man and the people in countries like Estonia, Chechnya, Georgia ect... who are already having their freedom taken away from them.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 15:23
I am wondering, how long will mods tolerate this dude. Democratically elected president of an independent country is accused in paedophilia, killings, stealing of billions of dollars, connection to terrorists and all that without any serious facts, proofs, not to speak about court decisions.
 
.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 15:32
Originally posted by Anton

I am wondering, how long will mods tolerate this dude. Democratically elected president of an independent country is accused in paedophilia, killings, stealing of billions of dollars, connection to terrorists and all that without any serious facts, proofs, not to speak about court decisions.
 
 
Yes, I don't feel comfortable reading his posts. Looks like paranoia. I don't understand how can you equalize Putin and Stalin. And how the freedom was taking by Putin from Estonia and Georgia?
 
Indeed, I just can feel sorry for this poor, young man (DukeC). I hope his physical and mental health is alright. God bless him !


Edited by Sarmat12 - 11-Jun-2007 at 15:35
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 21:28
lol Duke, just give it up, these guys don't want to see anything bad about this "hero" of their's, so obviously your not going to convince them otherwise. It's not worth it, now their calling for you to be warned when your talking about a politician?
You feel sorry for someone who is talking about a country with a history of corruption and dictatorship, with a leader who was a former KGB and suspect recent actions that may point to the state of Russia with killing their own journalist and those speaking out against Putin? And your worried about him? Oh boy....
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 21:54
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

lol Duke, just give it up, these guys don't want to see anything bad about this "hero" of their's, so obviously your not going to convince them otherwise. It's not worth it, now their calling for you to be warned when your talking about a politician?
You feel sorry for someone who is talking about a country with a history of corruption and dictatorship, with a leader who was a former KGB and suspect recent actions that may point to the state of Russia with killing their own journalist and those speaking out against Putin? And your worried about him? Oh boy....
 
Look, Putin is not my hero, I don't give a s.. about him. But there are no any serious proofs that he did anything like is described in the western mass media.
 
If you can give me serious proofs that he did anything like that, I would be willing to consider them.
 
I am Russian and I lived in Russia of Putin and I saw his "regime" in action.
 
So don't you think it is strange that people from outside of the country know more than people living in there?
 
Again, I was asking DukeC to be objective, I really would like to have an objective and fruitfull discussion.
 
You know, you can interpret one fact in very different ways. You can interpret 9/11 as an attack of Islamic terrorists or you can suggest a bizzare interpretation that it was a set up by CIA.
 
Just give me proofs. The fact that the journalist Politkovskaya was killed doesn't necessarily mean that she was killed by Putin. I wrote in my previous posts, that most likely she was killed by Kadyrov, leader of a current Chechnia regime, because he was the most one who was heart by her criticism. The domestic politics of Russia is a very complex and Putin is not involved in everything what is going on there. The same thing is with the murder of Litvinenko.
 
The only thing that I want is objectivity. I want Russia, which is my country, to be on friendly terms with the rest of the world, including USA and the West. That's why I don't like when people just repeat again and again what they saw on TV or read in the newspapers withour even trying to consider other possible explanations of the events.
 
That's why I'm sorry for the person, who seems to be smart, but just keeps repeating the same crap that Putin is a new Stalin, who kills journalists and blah, blah, blah.
 
I lived in this country, I know how Putin is critisized there I know how the people of Russia treat him, that's why I don't like these groundless assertions which are nothing more than a massive Mass media campaign against the image of Russia in the world.
 
Again, I'm personally not the fan of Putin and I don't like a lot of things he is doing. But I simply, don't like when his image is demonized to that extent. He is not perfect, but he still remains the leader of my country. That's why I'm sorry when the others prefer not to listen to the words of the insiders, but just repeat like a mantra the steriotypes which they got from the biased mass media.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 12-Jun-2007 at 20:39
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 06:04
Neither do I like him. I am actually strongly against him 'cause I think he is too small-minded to be a leader of such a big country. But you, American fellas, before teaching rest of the world how to live, clean the sh*t in your own house. Your own president is suspected in connection in 911 attacks, he had direct benefits from that. He started two wars in few years led to death of more than 2000 American soldiers and much much more civilians.
 
Definitely freedom in Russia is not in a high level. For sure, TV is dependent on the state. Corruption and criminal situation in Russia is huge, journalists are killed. Situations like Beslan or Nord-Ost happen and one could blaim authorities that they didn't do much to prevent them. However things are changing. Slowly, not as it is said in state TVs but they are changing to the right direction.
 
Obviously  Eltsin's Russia of 1993-1997 was much more convenient for you.  Now, Russia has more ways to influence the world politics majorly by regulation access to Russian market for small countries (for her neighbours majorly) and regulation of perferences of oil and gas prices (and with some strategic projects like gas pipe). This, obviously should lead to anti-Russian histeria in western press and in countries mostly affected by Russian pressure. That's a part of the game and way of influencing Russia. Similar situation you may find in Russia -- anti western (anti American mostly) histeria is developed there as well. But I always thought that all that crap is for lumpens. You, guys in this forum, are supposed to be interested in history, don't you see that similar situations happened many times before and will happen in the future?


Edited by Anton - 12-Jun-2007 at 09:59
.
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 19:46
But you, American fellas, before teaching rest of the world how to live, clean the sh*t in your own house. Your own president is suspected in connection in 911 attacks, he had direct benefits from that
I didn't say anything about America teaching anything about the rest of the world. I don't believe Bush had any part of 9/11, but do believe he is a War Crimnal along with his Adminstration.
Besides, being in America, I can criticize who want. The journalist in Russia can't seem to say the samething, either because they are on the run, or are pushing up daisies.
he had direct benefits from that.
He didn't have "direct" benefits, but Cheney might have. And it's said Cheney has had the most power of any Vice President in US history.
He started two wars in few years led to death of more than 2000 American soldiers and much much more civilians.
Which is why he's not popular here, and the war isn't either. Besides, your talking as though I deny this stuff...
Definitely freedom in Russia is not in a high level. For sure, TV is dependent on the state. Corruption and criminal situation in Russia is huge, journalists are killed. Situations like Beslan or Nord-Ost happen and one could blaim authorities that they didn't do much to prevent them. However things are changing. Slowly, not as it is said in state TVs but they are changing to the right direction.
Most of the journalist who were killed were critical of Putin either saying he was corrupt or did nothing to stop corruption. If they die because they are critical of how Putin runs Russia, wouldn't that sort of leave, lets say a "hint" that he's behind this? He was apart of the darkest games in politics being apart of the KGB.
 
I don't mind Russia getting strong, I just don't like Putin and can't trust. There isn't much freedom in Russia for journalist and he's not doing anything about it. Having biased media that picks one side isn't healthy for a nation if you ask me.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 20:04
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

lol Duke, just give it up, these guys don't want to see anything bad about this "hero" of their's, so obviously your not going to convince them otherwise. It's not worth it, now their calling for you to be warned when your talking about a politician?
You feel sorry for someone who is talking about a country with a history of corruption and dictatorship, with a leader who was a former KGB and suspect recent actions that may point to the state of Russia with killing their own journalist and those speaking out against Putin? And your worried about him? Oh boy....
 
Yah, I gave up, it actually hurts my head trying to follow their logic about Putin. As for calling for a warning against me that's a joke, Putin is one of the most corrupt politicians in the world today and if anything I didn't go far enough. I've noticed a small number of posters on the web recently that are trying to rewrite modern Russian history and attack anyone who even suggests that Putin is anything but a great leader. I don't know if professionals are doing it but I wouldn't be surprised considering the lengths the Russian government is going to to suppress any dissidence. 
 
 


Edited by DukeC - 12-Jun-2007 at 20:08
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 20:13
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Most of the journalist who were killed were critical of Putin either saying he was corrupt or did nothing to stop corruption. If they die because they are critical of how Putin runs Russia, wouldn't that sort of leave, lets say a "hint" that he's behind this? He was apart of the darkest games in politics being apart of the KGB.
 
Most of the journalist that were killed criticized not only Putin but dozens of others. Some of them even were not related to politics.
 
 
I don't mind Russia getting strong,
 
Neither do I.
 I just don't like Putin and can't trust.
 
Neither do I. He did not keep his promices many times. Not with foreign partners of Russia though. However one thing is to suspect and another is to accuse without any proofs.
 
There isn't much freedom in Russia for journalist and he's not doing anything about it.
He is doing a lot opposing free mass media. However it is his logic, first people should learn freedom and then use it. They way how people used it in early 1990s was not not healthy at all.
 
Having biased media that picks one side isn't healthy for a nation if you ask me.
Agree. However NTV's criticism was not constructive. It was completely destructive. But do you know why I don't like Putin mostly? Because after controlling mass media he had excellent opportunity to make unpopular reformation in economics and infrastructure and he just wasted this opportunity. He wasted his time in creation popular pseudopatriotic sh*t like changing the Russian Anthem and all sort of crap. He is just uncertain person. And you are telling me about "bloody KGB hands". LOL
 
 


Edited by Anton - 12-Jun-2007 at 20:16
.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 20:35
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

 
I don't mind Russia getting strong, I just don't like Putin and can't trust. There isn't much freedom in Russia for journalist and he's not doing anything about it. Having biased media that picks one side isn't healthy for a nation if you ask me.
 
Dear SearchAndDestroy how do you know that journalists are not free there?
 
If you have a Russian friend please go with him to the Russian internet pages. You can find there whatever crap you want about Putin, sometimes even worse than it is in the posts of respectable Mr.DukeC.
 
And it's not anonymous but on the official web pages of the papers and magazines with the names of the journalists.
 
If Russia got anything from the democratic reforms it is the freedom of speach.
 
Everybody is free there to say anything he wants.
 
The problem is that people in Russia can distinguish what information can be more reliable because they experience everything that Putin does by themselves. That's why they are not going to overthrow Mr. Putin, because they know of what he is really capable of.
 
It is much harder to get a reliable information outside of Russia. It really looks like he is the most evil leader the country had since the times of Stalin. And this is totally wrong; it's indeed means "Having biased media that picks one side" like you wrote.
 
That's why I don't like this exaggerations about Putin. He is not a great leader, and he is not a hero and he is not that popular.
 
But what an average person abroad would think about the country where leader "kills journalists mercylessly."?
 
It would just promote a bad attitude to this country, a fear of this "NeoStalinism" and more hostility in the world. That's why I don't like these exaggerations.
 
If you really want to be objective just try to imagine, that what if somebody simply wants to ruin the image of Putin and Russia for whatever reasons? What if...?
 
I think that if you even can't imagine that, this mass media brain wash was very succesful.  The only thing I want is objectivity. And don't you think it is strange that foreign guys are trying to convince me (a Russian person) that they know better what is really going on in Russia?
 
I think it's strange.
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 12-Jun-2007 at 20:51
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 21:08
See what I mean, they sit there and wait for anything to be written about Putin like their job depends on it or something.LOL
 
Here's an example of the stuff going on even on this forum, it targets a nation which Putin isn't happy with right now.
 
 
 


Edited by DukeC - 12-Jun-2007 at 21:15
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 9>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.