Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Finno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 89101112 29>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos
    Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 16:01
Originally posted by Illirac

yeah, so the "soviet Germany" is Slavic, because almost all city names derive from Slavic words, and there was a place where many cultures influenced, as Finns....
 
What is Soviet Germany? Do u mean Eastern Germany?
 
It proves only that the name Moscow has most likely Finnish orgins. As concerning the discussion on the Finnish influences on Russian nation, it's another topic.
 
Nobody says that because the name-Moscow is Finnish, it means that Russians are Finns. There are other arguments for that.
 
You, probably, misunderstood something.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 24-Jun-2007 at 16:58
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 17:03
it's difficult that 100 millions of Finnish peoples adopted the Slavic language and costumes(the Slavic god and mythology)
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 17:42
Originally posted by Illirac

it's difficult that 100 millions of Finnish peoples adopted the Slavic language and costumes(the Slavic god and mythology)
Strange argument, 100 mln. Finnish people what do u mean? The number of population of Russia now is 140 mln (after 1000 years of history).
 
The original population of the eastern lands of Kievan Rus was 3-5mlns. I don't see any impediments for the Slavicinization of this number of people.
 
Russian costumes and mythology are similar but not IDENTICAL to costumes and mythology of other Slavic nations. But a lot of similarities with Finnish closing and myths exist.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 24-Jun-2007 at 20:00
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 02:25
in history i don't know when millions of people changed to the rulers nationality(except Roman Empire) ...
and the gods of the Gauls, Germans and Woad where similar but not the same just their name changed, and for example the Baba Yaga and the firebird are same in Croatia just different names,
 they have been on the influence of Finns and adopted  some words and costumes but they are for sure not Finns(for me, it's seems u are obsessed with it), they were Slavic, always was ans always will be
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 03:42
Originally posted by Illirac

in history i don't know when millions of people changed to the rulers nationality(except Roman Empire) ...
and the gods of the Gauls, Germans and Woad where similar but not the same just their name changed, and for example the Baba Yaga and the firebird are same in Croatia just different names,
 they have been on the influence of Finns and adopted  some words and costumes but they are for sure not Finns(for me, it's seems u are obsessed with it), they were Slavic, always was ans always will be


 
I'm not obsessed with everything.
 
Not Slavs, but Finns were influenced by Slavs. And how about for example Croatians didn't Slavs just influenced and assimilated the local Illiric tribes?
 
So, why this wasn't possible in Russia? The question is what was the percentage of those Finns?
 
Again, I'm just discussing the theory. And so far, I still think it was possible. If you want to cotribute to the discussion please provide some additional ideas, do not just say that I am obsessed with this idea.
 
By the way how are Baba Yaga and Firebird called in Croatia?
 
Do you also have Koshei the Immortal?
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 25-Jun-2007 at 03:44
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 04:26
now I'll tell what happened: the Russians where Slavs, they just occupied those territories and absorbed some Finn costume, the same that happened with Greece, Rome conquered it military and Greece conquered Rome culturally
 
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 04:55
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by aeon

These chronicles relate Ukranian events starting from the 16th century. They say nothing about the ancient Russian state.
 
these chronicles rate history of Kiev exactly after fall of Kiev under Mongols. Nothing is said there about extermination of slavonic population and its exchange by turkic speaking one.
 
These chronicles relate Ukrainian events of the 16th-18th centuries. They say nothing about earlier events. The process of Turkic settlement in Ukraine is described in the Russian chronicles of the 11-13th centuries.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 04:56
Originally posted by Illirac

now I'll tell what happened: the Russians where Slavs, they just occupied those territories and absorbed some Finn costume, the same that happened with Greece, Rome conquered it military and Greece conquered Rome culturally
 
 
No, I don't think Finns totally conquered Russians culturally, most likely it was vice versa. Anyway, I was told a version like that a long time ago in my elementary school class of Russian history, so I want something more interesting now.
 
Tell me better about the Yugoslav Baba-Yaga !
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:01
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by aeon

Ukrainians were usually called Circassians (cherkasy).
 
Voevodstvo Cherkasskoe? LOL
 
The town of Cherkassy.
 
Originally posted by Anton

 
Yes he was a Russian writer living in Kiev, like later Mikhail Bulgakov.
 
This is what me and sarmat (I suppose) mean -- all people lived in Kiev and cities around were Russians. 
 
Not all. There also was the subject proto-Ukrainian population that later merged with Turkics and gave birth to the Ukrainian ethnicity.
 
Originally posted by Anton

Ukranian national separate national identity occured later.
 
Yes, under strong Turkic influence.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:05

Dear aeon, I'm totally confused about your version of Russian history. Could you please explain more, for example, who in your view was Riurik, was he a Finno-Ugrian?

Could you give at least a basic picture of your basic concept of Ancient Rus history?

 
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:18
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
No, you are trying to forge the hostorical facts.
 
No, it is you who is trying to do that.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Cherkassy was the popular name for Ukrainian cossacks in Moscow. Why? because their appearence, closing etc. resembled those of Chircassians for Moscow people. And this name for Ukrainian cossacks existed only in Moscow.
 
No, it existed everywhere in Europe. For example, this is what the Englishman Samuel Collins wrote in the 17th century:
 

"Черкасы так же, как и Русские, исповедуют Греческую веру... Черкасы Татарского племени, народ грубый и мрачный... Во время угощений они напиваются пьяны еще прежде, нежели начнут подавать кушанья: едою они протрезвляются, потом опять напьются, а потом опять протрезвятся пляскою, а пляску они очень любят..
Правление их совершенно анархическое, потому что они, возмутившись, уничтожили все дворянское сословие и теперь управляются полковниками, ими самими избранными, с которыми всякий из них обходится запанибрата. Воинов они на своем языке называют казаками, почему ошибаются многие, считая казаков особенным народом" (Самюэль Коллинс, 1660-е годы)

 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

There are also theories that the town Cherkassy in Ukraine was established by some Chirkassians settlers who moved there during the times of ancient Russian kniaz Mstislav Udaloi. There were indeed a lot of Chirckassians in his army, who were also called cassogi.
 
A lot of Chirkassian nobles and people actually also lived Moscow Rus.
 
Anyway name Cherkass has a connection to Chirkassian not to Turk. So, based on your logic we should consider Ukrainians Chirkassians now, but not Turks. LOL
 
Ukrainians are a mixture of many ethnic groups. But the Turkic influence was much stronger than Caucasian.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Basically, the name "Cossack" is of Turkic origin. So does it mean that Russian Cossacks are also Turks?
 
I can also put some pictures of Russian Cossacks here, where they look identical to Chirckassians (from which they copied their uniforms) and also Turks. Imitation of closing doesn't change their ethinc roots.
 
So what, Russians were called Moskals by Ukranians... Does it prove that they are not Russians?
 
It is you who claim this.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

The most spread name for Ukraine was Rus, anyway, and in Polish chroniceles (and Lithianian) Ukrainians and Belorussian were called Russians or Rusines. There is a still an ethnic group of Ukrainians called Rusines.
 
Moscow people were called Muscovites, if u say they were not, you simply need to do some additional research on that.
 
The term Moscovia was invented by Lithuanians and Poles in the 16th century to justify their occupation of the former Russian lands. They pretended that Russians are not Russians but some mysterious "Muscovites" who have no title to the former Russian lands occupied by the Lithuanians and Poles. From Lithuania and Poland the term "Moscovia" also became known in West Europe, where however everybody understood it quite clearly that "Moscovia" is actually Russia. Look at this 17th century map of the Dutchman Isaac Massa.
 
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:26
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
 
The city is named after the river (ancient Russian: гра́д Моско́в, literally the city by the Moskva River). The origin of the name is unknown, although several theories exist.[3] The most reliable theory is that the name derives from Finno-Ugric Moska tribe who lived along the Moskva river.Their main settlement was named Moskova which suggest some connections to Karelia and Tshuudis. One theory suggests that the source of the name is an ancient Finnic language, in which it means "dark" and "turbid". Alternatively, the name may come from the Finno-Permic Komi language, meaning "cow-river" or from the Finno-Volgaic Mordovian language, meaning "bear-river".In Tatar-Turkic languages this wooden Finno-Ugrian settlement was also called Moskova.
 
This wikipedia entry is obviously written by either a Ukranian or a Finno-Ugrian. Smile It is complete BS. No "Finno-Ugric Moska tribe" has ever existed, not to mention its living along the Moskva river. This area was never inhabited by Finno-Ugrians. Its population has always been Indo-European, which is attested by the hydronymy.
 
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:30
Originally posted by Illirac

 they have been on the influence of Finns and adopted  some words and costumes but they are for sure not Finns(for me, it's seems u are obsessed with it),
 
Very good observation from an outsider. Ukranians are indeed obsessed with "proving" that Russians are Finno-Ugrians.
Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:31
Originally posted by aeon

No, it existed everywhere in Europe. For example, this is what the Englishman Samuel Collins wrote in the 17th century:
 

"Черкасы так же, как и Русские, исповедуют Греческую веру... Черкасы Татарского племени, народ грубый и мрачный... Во время угощений они напиваются пьяны еще прежде, нежели начнут подавать кушанья: едою они протрезвляются, потом опять напьются, а потом опять протрезвятся пляскою, а пляску они очень любят..
Правление их совершенно анархическое, потому что они, возмутившись, уничтожили все дворянское сословие и теперь управляются полковниками, ими самими избранными, с которыми всякий из них обходится запанибрата. Воинов они на своем языке называют казаками, почему ошибаются многие, считая казаков особенным народом" (Самюэль Коллинс, 1660-е годы)

 
Aeon, please post only in English language or if otherwise make sure to include translation to your post. This is according to the rules of the forum and a sign of respect to the forum members.
 
Thanks!
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:34
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Dear aeon, I'm totally confused about your version of Russian history. Could you please explain more, for example, who in your view was Riurik, was he a Finno-Ugrian?

He wore a beard, so in your logic he was Finno-Ugrian.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Could you give at least a basic picture of your basic concept of Ancient Rus history? 
 
Well, Ukranians have very little to do with the ancient Russian state. They were the conquered population there. This was not their state, therefore they lost all memory about it.
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:36
baba yaga, an old ugly woman, comes from some fable, like irish banshee, there is no to tell much(and the Croats absorbed almost all Russian mythology as i know)
 
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:59
Originally posted by Illirac

baba yaga, an old ugly woman, comes from some fable, like irish banshee, there is no to tell much(and the Croats absorbed almost all Russian mythology as i know)
 
 
Really?
 
Why did they have to absorb Russian fairy tails, it's the first time I hear this.
 
U know Russian baba yaga is very special. There is of course a kind of evil witch in many traditions. But I wanted to know how does she look like in Yugoslav folkore, where does she live etc. Because some say that Russian Baba-Yaga has Finnish origins.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 06:04
Originally posted by aeon

Very good observation from an outsider. Ukranians are indeed obsessed with "proving" that Russians are Finno-Ugrians.
 
May be, but I'm not obsessed with that and I'm not Ukrainian. LOL
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 06:05
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by Sarmat12

Dear aeon, I'm totally confused about your version of Russian history. Could you please explain more, for example, who in your view was Riurik, was he a Finno-Ugrian?

He wore a beard, so in your logic he was Finno-Ugrian.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Could you give at least a basic picture of your basic concept of Ancient Rus history? 
 
Well, Ukranians have very little to do with the ancient Russian state. They were the conquered population there. This was not their state, therefore they lost all memory about it.
 
It just that you wrote earlier, that Svyatoslav was a Finno-Ugrian. So, I don't really understand what are you trying to say.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
aeon View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 11-Apr-2006
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 06:15
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by aeon

Very good observation from an outsider. Ukranians are indeed obsessed with "proving" that Russians are Finno-Ugrians.
 
May be, but I'm not obsessed with that and I'm not Ukrainian.
 
You are. No use trying to cheat me. LOL
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 89101112 29>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.