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Topic ClosedThe orthodox Christians should be thankfull to the Ottomans

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The orthodox Christians should be thankfull to the Ottomans
    Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 11:03

Without the Ottoman Empire, The Orthodoxians on the Balkanians would be defeated sooner or later by the Roman Catholics, and the Catholics would do what they did in Spain and South America, they would force the Orthodoxians to convert unlike to the Ottomans who let them their religion and their culture.

The Orthodoxians worked together with the Ottoman Empire after they were defeated, because they knew what would happen if the Turks would pull back, the Inquisiton would come to the Balkan to convience  them of the advantages of the Holly Catholic Church.

Or why was the mother of Fatih Sultan Mehmet (the conqueror of Byzantion) also the daughter of the Serbian Emperor, Lazar, (a enemy of the turks, who lost the battle of Kosovo). There are more Examples of cooperation between the Orthodoxians and Ottomans.

First when the western empires got more and more secular, the Orthodoxians begun to fight against the Turks.

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 12:00
Do you always speak the exact opposite of logic, or what?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 12:28

There is no doubt that the Muslim Ottomans had respected all other religons during the Ottoman Ages ...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 19:08
Ok, first of all, Byzantine Empire was still standing until the middle 15th century. The catholic church was ALREADY loosing much power at that time, and it had no chance of sweeping  down the Balkans to convert the people. Austia is in its way, and Austria was mainly not Catholic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 19:15
Originally posted by Christscrusader

Austria was mainly not Catholic.


i always thought that Austria was Catholic...they are the Holy Roman Emperors, after all.  and they fought Protestantism during the 30 Years War so that they would remain a Catholic state (along with the rest of Germany)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 20:41
Originally posted by Shafi

There is no doubt that the Muslim Ottomans had respected all other religons during the Ottoman Ages ...

Are you sure about that?  If they really did, Turkey would not exist today.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 04:46

200% sure. Or why are the overwhelming majority of Balkanians are still Christians, there are also a lot of churches, which are much older then 1000 and they stand still. Yes some Balkanians are Muslims and some Churches were converted to Mosques but never the Majority.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 06:10
Ottoman state conquered the Balkans in the 15th century,
and their relatively relaxed policiy towards other religions and
nations stopped in the 17th century. Up until the 20th century
theu terrorized Christian folk.

On the other hand, had the Ottomans never assaulted Byzantium,
the Byzantine influence would spread far around Europe and Asia.
Like it once was very influential.

Catholicism in Europe waned after the 15th century,
and especially after the appearance of protestantism.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 06:23
Originally posted by Bosnjo

200% sure. Or why are the overwhelming majority of Balkanians are still Christians, there are also a lot of churches, which are much older then 1000 and they stand still. Yes some Balkanians are Muslims and some Churches were converted to Mosques but never the Majority.

 

Then why is it that there are only 50 000 Christians in Turkey - less than 1% of Turkey's population -  yet there are more than 2 million Muslims in the Balkans?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 06:23
Every bigger church in Macedonia was coverted into a mosque. Not much different all over the balcans.
Not represing other religions
Well non muslims were paying so called tax in blood. One boy from a family had to go to serve the otoman army as as we call yanichar. They were converted to islam, and made the worst terror on non muslim people.
Also muslims had some benefits and christians had bigger taxes.

it was soooo nice to live there ... the paintings in churches where the hell is shown started to show otomans as devils.

And if otomans did not arrived and crushed the empire, i think it would be catholics converted to ortodoxy ... not the other way.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 07:41

[/QUOTE]

Then why is it that there are only 50 000 Christians in Turkey - less than 1% of Turkey's population -  yet there are more than 2 million Muslims in the Balkans?

[/QUOTE]

There were a lot of Greeks (Christians) in W-Turkey. After the Ottomans lost the WW 1. along with Germany and Austria,  Greece occupied the W-Turkey with the help of UK and France, but the Turks defeated the Greeks again, then they kicked Greeks out, like Greece, they also kicked Turks out of the N-Greece, it was a a so called "Population Transition".

 

@Orthodox who think without the Ottomans they would had defeated the Catholics, you are dreaming.

The Catholic Crussaders conquered Byzantion and looted it....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 09:52
Originally posted by Bosnjo

Without the Ottoman Empire, The Orthodoxians onthe Balkanianswould be defeated sooner or later by the Roman Catholics, and the Catholics would do what they did in Spain and South America, they would force the Orthodoxians to convert unlike to the Ottomans who let them their religion and their culture



Bosnji has a point there somewehere, although it's a bit more complicated that that. I don't think he is saying, that Ottoman islam was a beacon of religious tolerance, but compared to the Christian, and especially Catholic religion, it was comparetively enlightened.
Facing the inevitable doom of their Empire, many Byzantines prefered, quite wisely, Ottoman rule to a possible rule by Western, Catholic powers, Venice or whoever. After the conquest of Constantinople by the 4th crusade in 1204, the Byzantines had feared, quite rightly, that a Catholic rule would meant the suppression and thus the end of the Orthodox faith.
The Ottoman tolerated the Orthodox church up to a degree, not without periodical purges, but the fact the seat of the nominal head of all Orthodox Churches still is in Istanbul, and has been there for an unterrupted 17oo years, tells its own story.
That Bosnia, where Bosnjo is obviously from(?), has the only substantial Muslim population of all former Ottoman territories in Europe, is amongst other factors caused by the experiences the Bogomils had made with both Catholics and Orthodox, who undertook several Crusades against the "heretics".
When the Turks conquered Bosnia, many Bogomils were easier disposed to convert to Islam, as they saw it the most tolerant of all three religions. The Turks tolerated the remains of the Bogomil faith, which survived until today, mainly firstly in Bulgaria and than later in Rumania and Serbia.
The Ottomans seemed to have had a simple "matter of fact" solution to the problem of religious minorities, as long they paid their heavy taxes and supplied cannon-fodder for the army, they were tolerated. Not without the occasional persecution, of course.
If you compare that to the policy of Christian powers, who especially in the Americas but also in Spain, forcibly converted all "heathens" or slaughtered them right away, that's not too bad.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 14:23

Without the Ottoman Empire, The Orthodoxians on the Balkanians would be defeated sooner or later by the Roman Catholics, and the Catholics would do what they did in Spain and South America, they would force the Orthodoxians to convert unlike to the Ottomans who let them their religion and their culture.

The Orthodoxians worked together with the Ottoman Empire after they were defeated, because they knew what would happen if the Turks would pull back, the Inquisiton would come to the Balkan to convience  them of the advantages of the Holly Catholic Church.

Or why was the mother of Fatih Sultan Mehmet (the conqueror of Byzantion) also the daughter of the Serbian Emperor, Lazar, (a enemy of the turks, who lost the battle of Kosovo). There are more Examples of cooperation between the Orthodoxians and Ottomans.

First when the western empires got more and more secular, the Orthodoxians begun to fight against the Turks.

There is no doubt that the Muslim Ottomans had respected all other religons during the Ottoman Ages ...

200% sure. Or why are the overwhelming majority of Balkanians are still Christians, there are also a lot of churches, which are much older then 1000 and they stand still. Yes some Balkanians are Muslims and some Churches were converted to Mosques but never the Majority.

nice to see posts like these...

 

Not in Balkans,in every corner of the Empire Ottomans were tolerant to all nations or religions.

After 1789,the passion of nationalism affected the Balkans the most.It wasn't so important to be tolerant anymore.

Are you sure about that?  If they really did, Turkey would not exist today.

On the other hand, had the Ottomans never assaulted Byzantium,the Byzantine influence would spread far around Europe and Asia.Like it once was very influential.

LOL;the byzantines were establishing alliances with Ottomans against the rebels and Catholics in their own empire at their last times.

Well non muslims were paying so called tax in blood. One boy from a family had to go to serve the otoman army as as we call yanichar.

Not one boy from a family,one boy from 40 families in a town or a city.And the tax weren't so hard to pay;the Christians were trading in empire safely and free.

 

Although the tax(its name was cizye or jizya) Ottomans never wanted to convert any civilian Christians to the Muslims.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 15:05
Maybe at the beginning yes,but exactly why to thank the Ottoman empire?For the destruction of churches and monasteries?For the violent islamization of Orthodox children?For the hanging of the Patriarch in front of the gate of the Patriarchy?For the destruction of the Orthodox jewel the church of Agia Sofia?Why to thank the Ottoman empire?Because it did not exterminate all christians although it tried?Safety in the Ottoman empire????? Man,are you aware of the hiden schools were the Orthodox priests tried to give a primitive education to the Orthodox people in order to keep their faith?The topic should be:The orthodox christians should be thankfull to the Ottomans for the first decades of the Ottoman occupation.But after that.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 16:50
Originally posted by Bosnjo

200% sure. Or why are the overwhelming majority of Balkanians are still Christians, there are also a lot of churches, which are much older then 1000 and they stand still. Yes some Balkanians are Muslims and some Churches were converted to Mosques but never the Majority.

Maybe because they Fought and held onto their religions. Your telling me today that there are 70million? or so turks, and that their all pure Asiatic? Come on. Obviously alot were converted, as with the turkish jannasary.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 18:05
Bogomils were more social than herretic movemant. And it spread from Macedonia to west. They were safe only during the period of Tzar Samuil, who was one of the belivers in this idea.

Byzant on the other hand was on a mission - search and distory ...

And comeon, even turks were not safe on the ottoman roads.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 18:31

I think that in general terms the ottomans were pretty tolerant towards christians and jews. It was a characteristic of the islamic societies (like the moors in Spain)to be tolerant towards those who they called "the people of the book". They would pay a tax, though. Originally they wouldn't be serving in the army but then came the devshirme system. Some centuries later it was abolished (since both christians and muslims served in the Janissary alike), when the empire was already en route to westernization and secularism.

Comparing them to other societies at the time, the Ottomans were, de facto, more tolerant. But there is still a big bias in the West, I think, regarding islamic societies and empires and their roles in History (along with some historical misconceptions and mystifications).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 01:43

Originally posted by JasSum

Bogomils were more social than herretic movemant..

When the Ottomans entered Europe, the Bogomils converted en-masse to Islam. They were the first ones to welcome the Ottomans. Of course, given the persecution they had experienced so far, one cannot blame them!

It's debatable if they were the inspiration for the Cathar (from Katharos=clean) movement that later spread in W.Europe, only to be brutally squashed by the Catholic church. Perhaps the Crusades had something to do with that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 05:16
Originally posted by JasSum

Bogomils were more social than herretic movemant. And it spread from Macedonia to west.

The Bogomils were most definitely a religious movement, a gnostic-dualist religion that rejected most of the doctrines and all of the organisation of both Catholic and Othodox Churches, which therefore regarded them as "heretics'. Gnosticism pread slowly and in various forms from the Middle East throughout the Byzantine Empire and found aparticular stronghold in, what's now, Bulgaria.
The "heretics' were thus in the West simply known as "Bulgars", from which the English insult "buggers" comes from.
From there it spread via Serbia and Bosnia first into Northern Italy and then into France, where it became established as "Catharism".
There seems to have been a regular contact between all these dualist movements in Europe.
The "social" element of Bogomilsm and all similar movements can be explained by their complete rejection of all church and most worldly authority and their strong sense of community.
It was a strongly ascetic movement, where ,up to a degree, possesions where shared, not unlike the very early Christian church that lived an almost "communist"( in the true sense of the word)community.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 07:33

The first crusade was not against the Muslims, it was against the Bogomils because they were a threat to the Pope, they spread too strong in W-Europe, but the crusaders defeated and killed them all, only on the Balkan Survived some.

The Bogomil religion was nearer to Islam then other Christians for example: T

hey were against the Cross, they saw in the cross a torture instrument, not more. 

Cathars also believed that Jesus was not God's Son, only a Prophete.

They also believed that after Jesus would the last Prophet appear, and as the turks arrived with Mohamed, they saw in him this Prophet.

 

 

Well, the term thankfull is a bit provocative. But I want to say that the Ottoman Empire was not so bad, like some Orthodoxians say, at least until the rising of nationalism. Considering that in this time the hole world was dominated by worse or less worse Tyrans, it was not so bad. Yes it was a Occupation but who will tell you that a System led by people from your folk is realy better.

Getting a Yanissary, was not so bad, this Christian farmer sons  got  an opportunity to make career.

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