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If the Nazis conquered the USSR?

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: If the Nazis conquered the USSR?
    Posted: 18-May-2007 at 12:26
Originally posted by ChickenShoes

If Germany enacted Operation Sphinx or Felix they probably could have won. That Operation involved seizing Gibraltar, Malta, and eventually Egypt.

 
I think the British navy can still enter Mediteranean even if Nazi can capture the Gibraltar, can't they?
 
Capturing Malta is what Axis power must have done, but they didn't! They would have been able to reinforce Rommels' troops with tanks as promised. But since Germans concentrated their focus on Operation Barbarossa, little reinforcement was given to Rommel. And those little reinforcement (Especially tanks) were sunk by British forces in Malta. Seriously, why didn't they took that island? Not that I am complaining, of course.
 
If Malta is secured, it's likely that Rommel would have barged all the way to Cairo... and even Middle East, if he gets extra reinforcement from Italy.
     
   
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 00:20
If the nazis had won in Russia, they would have had to face an even Bigger "problem".
 
The simple fact that Russia was, and still is, a very Large country, spread out between whole continents, would mean that they would have to be able to deal with Russian "gurilla warfare", after all of the major cities have fallen. This would in turn, spread the nazi forces extremely thin, thinner than it was already spread.
 
In order to fully Conquer Russia, an invader would need to STABILIZE the Entire territory of this VAST nation. Keep in mind that Russia's population was and still is, also very VAST. 
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 01:03
Originally posted by Penelope

If the nazis had won in Russia, they would have had to face an even Bigger "problem".
 
The simple fact that Russia was, and still is, a very Large country, spread out between whole continents, would mean that they would have to be able to deal with Russian "gurilla warfare", after all of the major cities have fallen. This would in turn, spread the nazi forces extremely thin, thinner than it was already spread.
 
In order to fully Conquer Russia, an invader would need to STABILIZE the Entire territory of this VAST nation. Keep in mind that Russia's population was and still is, also very VAST. 
 
Not entire area. Just key points like Moscow, St. Petersburg and some oil fields. Resistance without Stalin or anyone like him would be as bad as the Chinese resistance against Japanese.
 
Look at it this way. Germans maintaining Soviet Union is like Britain trying to maintain the sea. Britain don't have to send ships to cover all the bodies of water. They just need to control some strategic areas, like Malta and Gibraltar.
 
Even when Operation Barbarossa went smoothly, Russians were able to make fierce resistance. This is because they simply moved their production zones to the further east. (Ex. moving all industries to Ural Mountain) Without the key strategic positions and being cut off from Western aids... even Russians don't have chance.
 
I suspect that America would send aids by heading to Northern Pacific. They would not do this normally, but Americans need constant Russian resistance to ensure America' security as well.
 
That's where Japan will play the key part, I think. Germans will help Japan by giving them some advantages (Jet technology to reclaim Japan's air supremacy, maybe?) But Germans are smart enough to make sure that they don't help Japan out too much... for they will have to conquer Japan in the future.


Edited by pekau - 19-May-2007 at 01:07
     
   
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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 22:29
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by ChickenShoes

If Germany enacted Operation Sphinx or Felix they probably could have won. That Operation involved seizing Gibraltar, Malta, and eventually Egypt.

 
I think the British navy can still enter Mediteranean even if Nazi can capture the Gibraltar, can't they?
 
Capturing Malta is what Axis power must have done, but they didn't! They would have been able to reinforce Rommels' troops with tanks as promised. But since Germans concentrated their focus on Operation Barbarossa, little reinforcement was given to Rommel. And those little reinforcement (Especially tanks) were sunk by British forces in Malta. Seriously, why didn't they took that island? Not that I am complaining, of course.
 
If Malta is secured, it's likely that Rommel would have barged all the way to Cairo... and even Middle East, if he gets extra reinforcement from Italy.
 
Very much agreed, but if they captured Gibraltar, Malta, and Egypt, all British forces there are stuck. How else will the British enter the Mediterranean if everything West of Egypt already belongs to the Nazis? It wouldn't have worked though, they would have been forced to utilize the Italian military which is like being shackled to a corpse.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 23:50
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Penelope

If the nazis had won in Russia, they would have had to face an even Bigger "problem".
 
The simple fact that Russia was, and still is, a very Large country, spread out between whole continents, would mean that they would have to be able to deal with Russian "gurilla warfare", after all of the major cities have fallen. This would in turn, spread the nazi forces extremely thin, thinner than it was already spread.
 
In order to fully Conquer Russia, an invader would need to STABILIZE the Entire territory of this VAST nation. Keep in mind that Russia's population was and still is, also very VAST. 
 
Not entire area. Just key points like Moscow, St. Petersburg and some oil fields. Resistance without Stalin or anyone like him would be as bad as the Chinese resistance against Japanese.
 
Look at it this way. Germans maintaining Soviet Union is like Britain trying to maintain the sea. Britain don't have to send ships to cover all the bodies of water. They just need to control some strategic areas, like Malta and Gibraltar.
 
Even when Operation Barbarossa went smoothly, Russians were able to make fierce resistance. This is because they simply moved their production zones to the further east. (Ex. moving all industries to Ural Mountain) Without the key strategic positions and being cut off from Western aids... even Russians don't have chance.
 
I suspect that America would send aids by heading to Northern Pacific. They would not do this normally, but Americans need constant Russian resistance to ensure America' security as well.
 
That's where Japan will play the key part, I think. Germans will help Japan by giving them some advantages (Jet technology to reclaim Japan's air supremacy, maybe?) But Germans are smart enough to make sure that they don't help Japan out too much... for they will have to conquer Japan in the future.
 
Good points. And Yes, the United States would definately invade Russia as well, from Asia.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2007 at 13:12
It really does not matter because they would not be able to hold it for long no one in any time past the middle ages has been able to hold russia. even if the nazis did cripple the russian army russia still has two major advatages. one is its enormas size this is mostly why no one has been able to hold russia and the russian winter they can bearly handle it them selves how are the germans going to do it.
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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 12:11
Originally posted by Lord Dumnorix

It really does not matter because they would not be able to hold it for long no one in any time past the middle ages has been able to hold russia. even if the nazis did cripple the russian army russia still has two major advatages. one is its enormas size this is mostly why no one has been able to hold russia and the russian winter they can bearly handle it them selves how are the germans going to do it.
 
a lot of this space you speak of barely has civilization in it. a lot of russia is woodland or uninhabitable permafrost.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 12:22
I know space issue is merely an excuse, but Russia do have lots of land. Though of of Russian lands are uninhaitable as you say, all the Western areas of Russia is still bigger than modern France. That's a lot of space, if you ask me...
     
   
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 01:14
Originally posted by ChickenShoes

Originally posted by Lord Dumnorix

It really does not matter because they would not be able to hold it for long no one in any time past the middle ages has been able to hold russia. even if the nazis did cripple the russian army russia still has two major advatages. one is its enormas size this is mostly why no one has been able to hold russia and the russian winter they can bearly handle it them selves how are the germans going to do it.
 
a lot of this space you speak of barely has civilization in it. a lot of russia is woodland or uninhabitable permafrost.
 
Yes, but if the Russians were on the verge of being conquered, they would definately have to utilize those areas, especially if the people had chosen not to submit to the invader.
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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 14:02
 
Yes, but if the Russians were on the verge of being conquered, they would definately have to utilize those areas, especially if the people had chosen not to submit to the invader.
[/QUOTE]
 
oh yeah definitely. they probably would have moved behind the Urals and had administration at Omsk or Ufa or something, but it would have been guerilla warfare not a large army versus another, most of the Red Army would have already surrendered.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 22:23
Originally posted by ChickenShoes

 
Yes, but if the Russians were on the verge of being conquered, they would definately have to utilize those areas, especially if the people had chosen not to submit to the invader.
 
oh yeah definitely. they probably would have moved behind the Urals and had administration at Omsk or Ufa or something, but it would have been guerilla warfare not a large army versus another, most of the Red Army would have already surrendered.
[/QUOTE]
 
Exactly, Guerilla Warfare.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 22:58
It seems most likely that had the Germans captured European Russia, the a government in Asian Russia would have continued the fight with massive partisan assistance inside European Russia.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 23:17
Asian Russian forces... how effective would they be really?
     
   
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 23:22
Originally posted by pekau

Asian Russian forces... how effective would they be really?


The USSR's Siberian troops were considered some of the best, extremely tough and able to withstand cold temperatures.

By this stage the USSR had moved much of its production capabilities east of the Ural mountains anyway. With good production capabilities, good quality soldiers and a decent amount of the Soviet population under its control, the USSR could have made a strike back provided they maintained control of their remaining provinces.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 16:37
Originally posted by Penelope

 Good points. And Yes, the United States would definately invade Russia as well, from Asia.
 
 
What? I said that Americans will help Russians, not attacking! Americans want to make sure that Russian resistance against Germany lives... Americans may stay out of war, but Americans simply watching Nazi Germany to take over Soviet Union sounds doubtful. Remember, once Soviet Union falls, America is next. Japan will follow the suit. I wonder, would the rise of Nazi Germany cause the Japanese Empire and America to combine their forces to maintain the balance of power?
     
   
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 04:57
Blitzkrieg was the revolutionary new battle technique and it required speed and suprise. However, Opperation Barbarossa was delayed by a month (about) when Italy needed help in taking the Baltic and Southern Europe. Because of this, although the German forces got close to Moscow (which would of seen an end to organized russian armies), they froze to death! The Russian winters are notoriously cold and not only did German soldiers only have summer clothing, but the oil for machinery froze, making them slow and extremely volnerable. If it wasn't for Italy, i think Hitler and his army would of defeated the USSR.
Also, opperation Sealion was never anything serious, it was an attempt that Hitler saw couldn't succeed and he gave up on it (If only he had radar :) ).
Like many others around, I think Germany would succeed in taking all of europe, but then be nuked. (But i don't think they would take Britain, it would result in too high casualties)
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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:57
opperation Sealion was serious, if the Luftwaffe didn't stop bombing the air fields, the RAF would lost!
And the German air superiority would destroy the Royal Navy, because the WWII battelships had no chance against air attacks.
Without Britain Barbarossa would be sucessful, because the Germans could use poisen gas in USSR without RAF poisengas threat!
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 11:16

Well sealion was serious but not to the extent of Hitler's ambitions of the USSR and France. Hitler did not want a war with Britain (and he had succeeded in removing them from France) and tried to quickly take control of the strait so that Britain was helpless. It was just a battle that would prove decisive if Britain remained in the war or not. However, i highly doubt that it was the victory of Britain that foiled Hitler's plans to defeat the USSR. It was the winter that slowed down the German army to a complete hault. It was the VERY VERY cold weather that destroyed the Germans, hundreds of thousands died from disease and frostbite. Also, this gave Stalin time to withdraw the Siberian Regiments (who were very efficient) from the eastern border (Japan) and to bring them against the Germans. I don't see how the USSR could possibly of defended itself if Germany had attacked 1 month earlier (or more).

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  Quote antisocrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 21:09
One thing to remember is that it took Stalin a decade or more to move the old Czarist industrial complex to the Urals, at tremendous human and economic cost, and that during peacetime.  If Germans hypothetically defeat Russians and either destroy or occupy the Urals complex, I do not see how they can offer any meaningful resistance.  Yes, there will be partisan warfare, but that won't be significant, given that the Nazis would be willing to engage in wholesale genocide of the Russians if necessary.  Remember that the Nazis never had the time to root their administration in Russia before the Soviets counterattacked.   If the Russians are completely destroyed militarily, the Nazi death squads can make short work of the "enemy", i.e., simply exterminate the entire population, village by village, city by city, province by province.
 
Furthermore, most of the Slavic Russian population is in European Russia.  Yes, Siberian regiments are tough, but they would be of little use without tanks and airplanes, and besides, they themselves would not be numerous enough to make difference.  The conquest of European Russia, including the Urals and Caspian oil fields, would cripple the capacity of Russia to engage in mechanical warfare.  There would be no Kursk, only slaughter of infantry against panzers and stukas.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 23:03
Russia have taken out at least 75% of Germany's and its allies forces.
 
Without Russia America would have to take the main hit. Would Americans be willing to sacrifice millions of soldiers in order to save Europe?
 
It's one thing to invade Normandy when all the best troops and Panzer divisions are in the East and another thing to face all the might of Wermacht on the narrow Western European Sea coast.
 
If Russia felt, Gemany would concentrate all the efforts on building new advanced weapons. Most likely they would be able to produce jet fighters and long range rocket earlier than 1944.
 
All the industrial power of Europe, including industry and resources of Russia would be concentrated by the Nazi Reich. I doubt, that England would be able to stay for a long time.
 
If Germans could concentrate all their military industry for building heavy bombers in stead of building tanks for the Russian front, they most likely would win the second air battle for Britain.
 
If even the initial landing of American troop in Western Europe would be succesful, what's next?
 
At this time Germans could retreat to the East for God knows how long time. It would be another Eastern Front (at this time with the Germans on the East).
 
It seems to me that if Germans defeat Russia, the real outcome of the war would be stalemate.
 
I am not sure whether Americans would risk the massive invasion in Europe. At the same time Germans wouldn't have enough naval power to defeat the US.
 
So may be they would made an uneasy truce for some time, but in some decade WW III would follow with a very doubtful outcome.
 
P.S. It is the easiest way to blame the Russian winter, or General Frost in the German failure on the East in 1941. However, in fact it was not winter and not General Frost, but a Russian soldier who by sacrifising his life defeated the Nazi monster near Moscow.
 
I think Hitler was one of the author of this "winter theory." Indeed, how come these inhuman-commi could stop the superior Teuthonic-Arian armada. It is impossible of course ! The winter was the reason !
 
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 04-Jun-2007 at 23:08
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