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greatest Turkish Tribe/Kingdom?? |
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Kamikaze 738 
Baron 
Joined: 26-Mar-2007 Location: Hong Kong Online Status: Offline Posts: 463 |
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 Topic: greatest Turkish Tribe/Kingdom??Posted: 29-May-2007 at 15:31 |
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Huns and Mongols are not from Turkish origins thus should not be on the list, but they did conquer parts of Turkish inhabited terrorities...
Edited by Kamikaze 738 - 29-May-2007 at 15:31 |
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 29-May-2007 at 17:04 |
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Mongols arn't Turkic.
Huns-Xiong-nu were Turkic according to most sources.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Hulegu Han
Janissary 
Joined: 10-Apr-2007 Location: Mongolia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-May-2007 at 05:21 |
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I have a request to TURKISH forumers. Please don't attempt to claim Mongols or Avars to be Turkish tribe, since there isn't enough relation to prove it. When do you stop extreme nationalist tendency over the other nations, denying their cultural differences, such as Kurds and Bulgars. How poor and unrespectful your historical education is!!! |
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barbar
General 
retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 30-May-2007 at 14:02 |
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Don't generalize Helegu Han. the majority of comments to say that Mongols were not Turkic, actually came from our Turkic members. Avar is a different story.
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Either make a history or become a history.
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barbar
General
retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-May-2007 at 14:02 |
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If Huns were not the ancestors of the Turks, then Who were?
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Either make a history or become a history.
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Hulegu Han
Janissary
Joined: 10-Apr-2007 Location: Mongolia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 16:28 |
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It's not sensible to search modern nations ancestors from such early period of history when ,except for few nations, nationality of all weren't clear. We just know Huns once lived in vast area of Asian steppes but there were many tribes living at the same time as Huns. Probably Turks may have derrived from that tribes such as Sogdians, Bactrians or Western Huns.
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Penelope
Chieftain 
Alia Atreides Joined: 26-Aug-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1042 |
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Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 01:54 |
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I also agree that the Mongols were definately not Turks. Though, when Genghis Khan conquered all of the Mongol tribes, he was also able to obsorb a few Turkic tribes as well, which soon began to recognise themselves as being part of the Mongol Nation.
So to assume that the Mongol Nation created by Genghis consisted of Mostly mongols, but also a big Turk population, would be a good assumption.
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Kamikaze 738
Baron
Joined: 26-Mar-2007 Location: Hong Kong Online Status: Offline Posts: 463 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 02:58 |
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Im not exactly sure myself but I do believe that Huns werent Turkish ancestors but instead are in the same sub-divisionary catagory coming from the same ancestors which probably came to Central Asia from Siberia... however I clearly dont have much evidence to back that claim up so Im not confirming that it is true. But what I can confirm is that there were already Turks in Central Asia before the Huns migrated/fled there. Sources from the Chinese Han Dynasty said that the Xiongnu or Huns had record of a Turkish speaking language near their area. Thus its impossible that the Turks were descendants of the Huns when they themselves are already present. The Han army at the time defeated the Xiongnu many times and they decided to flee west, which probably encounter the Turkish nomads there which were trading with the Hans via the Silk Road which was constantly threaten by the Xiongnu. The Han emperor finally ordered a commander to fully drive out the Xiongnu out of western China and Ban Chao lead an expedition chasing the fleeing Xiongnu. Ban Chao recorded that there were people traveling with tends and migrated from one area to the next (though these may be Bactrian and Sogdianian but chances are they encounter Turkish tribes like the Khazars). There could have been some intermixing between the two peoples during those time but Turks being descendant from Huns are unlikely to me...  Edited by Kamikaze 738 - 02-Jun-2007 at 02:59 |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 07:32 |
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Kamikaze
sources from the Chinese Han Dynasty said that the Xiongnu or Huns had record of a Turkish speaking language near their area. Thus its impossible that the Turks were descendants of the Huns when they themselves are already present.
That really is an "ironic" statement.
We know most sources point towards Xiongnu Huns speaking Turkic and then you say its impossible for them to be Turkic
 Turks originated from that region, Mete Khan, Teoman etc are names used by Turks, the Tuman millitary system was inherited to Turks, its highly likely that Huns were originally made up of Turkic peoples, most sources and documents say that they were Turkic.
Edited by Bulldog - 02-Jun-2007 at 07:33 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Hulegu Han
Janissary
Joined: 10-Apr-2007 Location: Mongolia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 15:15 |
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I again want to say that it's not sensible to search modern nations ancestors from such early period of history when nationality of all weren't clear as many records were likely to be kind of mythology.
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Kamikaze 738
Baron
Joined: 26-Mar-2007 Location: Hong Kong Online Status: Offline Posts: 463 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 19:10 |
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Language may be similar but Turks cant be descendants of the Huns if the Huns and Turks are living at the same time... both people originated from the same place. Basically Turks and Huns are like cousins along with the Mongols that came from the same place that took separate paths of settlement. |
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malizai_
Sultan 
Alcinous Joined: 05-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2252 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 19:58 |
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Meshketians deserve a lot of respect. They punched above their weight, and refused to be assimilated. Some even survived annihilation.
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 08:47 |
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Kamikaze
Language may be similar but Turks cant be descendants of the Huns if the Huns and Turks are living at the same time... both people originated from the same place. Basically Turks and Huns are like cousins along with the Mongols that came from the same place that took separate paths of settlement.
Xiongnu-Huns were made up of various tribes including many Turkic ones making them part of Turkic ancestory aswell. |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Kamikaze 738
Baron
Joined: 26-Mar-2007 Location: Hong Kong Online Status: Offline Posts: 463 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 20:14 |
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Including Mongolians too, making them part of the Turkic ancestory as well then...  |
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GR3Y077
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 29-Aug-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 03:32 |
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Why are the Ottomans and Timurids left out
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 07:26 |
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I think it was about tribes not large empires or states? Even if thats the case how could the Oguz Turks be left out? and Khazaria was a powerfull state not just a tribe or kingdom. |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Afsar Beghi
Consul 
Joined: 18-Jun-2006 Location: Azerbaijan Online Status: Offline Posts: 341 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:48 |
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Definitely the Huns
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Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur,
Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur, Nice ko yiğitler yere serilir, Olen lr kalan sağlar bizimdir! |
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xi_tujue
Arch Duke 
Atabeg Joined: 19-May-2006 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 1919 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 15:48 |
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like me.  accualy they belonged to one of th Kypchak Beyliks before entering the Ottoman empire Edited by xi_tujue - 11-Jun-2007 at 11:50 |
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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barbar
General
retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 07:08 |
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Which source of Han records mentioned Turkic tribes? Who were they? The name Turk appreared only after Tujue.
There were many Nomadic tribes who had similar culture to those of the Huns in the west, Yuechi, Di, Sai, Wusun etc. Of course many of these tribes became Turkic (or maybe they were originally not too much different from Turkic tribes) in the later history, however we have continuous historical record that Turkic tribes were the decendants of the Huns.
Xin Tang Shu, 142, Huihu Zhuan:
"回纥，其先匈奴也，俗多乘高轮车，元魏时亦号高车部，或曰敕勒，讹为铁勒。其部落曰袁纥、薛延陀、契苾羽、都播、骨利干、多览葛、仆骨、拔野古、同罗、浑、思结、斛薛、奚结、阿跌、白，凡十有五种，皆散处碛北。 "
"Huihe (Uyghur), ancesters were Xiongnu (Hun). Before use high carts, so during yuanwei also called Gaoche, or Chile, or Tiele. Its tribes are Yuanhe, Xueyantuo, Qiebiyu, Dubo, Guligan, Duolange, bugu, Bayegu, Tongluo, Hun, Sijie, jiexue, Xijie, Adie, Baigu, all 15 tribes, scattered in the north."
All the historical records are clear about the Tiele (Tura) tribes (Turkic tribes) were the decendants of the Xiongnu (Hun).
And also we have clear record that Donghu (ancestors of Mongolic tribes) were called such because they were in the east of Hu (Xiongnu). NOT eastern branch of Hu.
Edited by barbar - 10-Jun-2007 at 07:09 |
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Either make a history or become a history.
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kurt
Consul
Joined: 17-Apr-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 358 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 09:22 |
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Just some things for you to consider ...
Many names in Turkey and other turkic countries also common in names in Mongolia. Such as my middle name Berke, which was the name of Genghis Khan's grandson and who was the second ruler of the Golden Horde. Other names, such as my father's name Orhan (derived from Or-khan, meaning son-of-khan), others such as Batuhan (derived from Batu-Khan, who was Berke Khan's father), Metehan and several dozen others, are prevalent in turkic countries.
As is so for many words in the western turkish language, although western turkish has been influenced heavily by Persian and Arabic. Nontheless, their similar roots and origins with Mongolian language can be seen. So i think you will agree that there is relation.
Consider this also; Timur (another name common in turkic countries), or Tamer Lane, or Timur Leng, whatever you want to call him, is considered by most historians as a mongol. Yet he considered himself a Turk, as can be seen by quotes from his correspondence with Beyazid. Henceforth, to suggest that mongols and turks are related, if not of the same ethnic stock, isn't an invalid suggestion.
I can't deny that there are turkish nationalists out there who make a lot of baseless claims, but this isn't one of them, besides which, it is unfair to assume all turks support these theories.
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