Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Pakistani Identity

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 10>
Author
SpartaN117 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 10-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistani Identity
    Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 20:44

Pakistan Identity

An Ancient Connection: The Indus River, the Silk Route, the Grand Trunk Road, and the Makran Coast.
Sonia Salim
The need to conduct a research on the Pakistani identity is important because it is necessary, and it compels continuity. It is necessary because as a relatively new nation-state in this world, Pakistanis are in a constant struggle with how they see themselves; more succinctly put, what does it mean to be Pakistani post 1947? 

What is the Pakistani identity? With a 5000-year-old history, the Pakistani identity is historically constituted, not just a product of the last century [Ahsan, 1996]. This identity is indeed rich with an indigenous culture, traditions, and language, separate and distinct from a specific Indian, or Arab, or Turk, or Afghan identity. The problem at hand is that most Pakistanis at present do not appeal to their ancient history when confronted with this identity crisis. Most nationalist campaigns only appeal to the recent events that lead up to 14 August 1947. Thus a research conducted on the Pakistan Identity needs to reveal the historical stories and events, which made us who we were yesterday, who we are today, and will continue making us tomorrow. There is a need to inculcate a feeling of surety and confidence by imparting knowledge on being Pakistani which appeals to all prehistoric, pre-Islamic elements and entities too. These elements form a large part of being Pakistani, which is often forgotten. Knowledge is power, and such power can dissipate any confusion amounting to how Pakistanis behave, or think, and not be told how they should be doing so. Of course, an historical account is a story of evolution, slow change; of change that has roots imbedded in Pakistans present area.

History reveals the truth above politics and diplomacy [Dani]. This area is known as the Indus valley pre-historically, and at present too. The Indus valley owes its being to the River Indus, which has its source in Tibet. This river cuts through the Himalayas and the Karakoram mountain ranges in the north, and runs through all four plains, south, i.e. N.W.F.P., Punjab, Balochistan, and Sindh. This river is the heart of Pakistan since time immemorial, binding and connecting the whole of the area, the Indus valley historically, or Pakistan, presently. These names can be used interchangeably. The Rivers veins or tributaries run through all the four provinces, providing at once life, and subsistence, and hence a common civilization. This important fact predetermines the formation of Pakistan. It immediately distinguishes this land mass from the rest of India, pre-partition, and before any other invading foreign influence that the centuries have brought this way. This fact cannot be reiterated enough, and is often forgotten in light of Pakistans political instability, and hostile relations with India [Fairley, 1993]. This fact must be instilled in every Pakistani head and heart, and must precede any other notion on being Pakistani.

In pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born Rahmat Ali. The River Indus, the Ancient Silk Route, the Grand Trunk Road and, the Makran Coast, will form the skeleton of this project. Infrastructure is one of the significant causes of development, which is why I wish to study the formation of the Pakistani Identity using the latter two historical routes, and the coast, in addition to the River. So far, having gone through a period of texts on Pakistani history has revealed repeatedly that the Archimedean point of our history for nationalists and textbook writers starts with the advent of Islam in 711 C.E. This is because Pakistan at present is an Islamic Republic, and for present day nationalists, this fact is what wholly, and solely makes us Pakistani. The pre-Islamic era is ignored and not considered as intrinsic, or is some how Indian or Other. This project seeks to inform the readers that the Indus region was a prosperous and organized, more than what it is today perhaps. And this fact is just as much a part of being Pakistani. Our history is multilateral, not unilateral. Professor Dani says, A country like Pakistan has deep roots in history, going much further back than the time when the new name Pakistan was applied in 1947 [Dani, Ancient Pakistan vol 1].

This fact makes it significant to include all the four possible trade routes during the ancient period as far back as the third millennium B.C.E. The Indus civilization is thus as important as the Egyptian civilization as a landmark of history in terms of organized, systematic living. The Indus civilization had clean and functional cities where a metropolitan culture evolved, and hence a modern lifestyle which bared no equivalence in any other civilization. One could deduce that this civilization was one of the harbingers of urbanization [Samad, 2000].

Briefly, the kind of modern urban lifestyle that the Indus civilization enjoyed was that of 10 m wide streets and lanes, public drainage and sewerage systems in houses, sectors dividing residential areas from the craft industrial sites, the agricultural farms, and public buildings. There is no evidence of palaces or castles, hence no monarchy, rendering it an absolute republic governed by the people. Each city was a city-state. The language they used was Indo-European based, probably belonging to the Brahui group spoken in West Baluchistan, Iran and Southern Afghanistan [Samad, 2000]. In retrospect, it is hard to believe that an ancient civilization is being discussed. It seems more modern and civil than what we are at present.

The Indus River being the Archimedean point of our civilization, will thus form the foundation of this project. Primarily, this river distinguishes us from India, Central Asia, and China as an entity. Therefore, it repels, and renders this area sovereign. Secondly, however, it is also this river that attracted many invaders, religions and international traders, to seek the riches of this region, and to flourish. Alexander the Great, Changez Khan, and Muhammad Bin Qasim are but a few of the prominent invaders who fought many Indus heroes to resist their invasion. The spread of Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, and Sufism mark the varying influences on this region, and demonstrates how significant a region it is on the world map.

The project will start with an in depth discussion of the Indus River, and its civilization. There is a vast collection of literature available on this region, highlighting its significance in history. The two capital cities of the Indus Empire, are known as Moenjodaro and Harrapa. The first is located in the province of Sindh, the second in Punjab. These were both pre-Buddhist civilizations and extremely sophisticated to say the least. The rest of the Indus civilization was / is present day Pakistan, and extended to the Indian cities of Rajasthan, Haryana, Cutch, and Kathiawar. This civilization was thus spread over vast and varying landscapes, from mountains, plains and deserts [Ahsan 1996, Samad 2000]. There are thousands of sites all over Pakistan bearing evidence, and affirming that we are primarily the Indus Civilization, over and above anything else. We are not an imported civilization, or culture [Samad 2000]. This point cannot be reiterated enough, and is the whole raison detre of this project. 

An in depth and thorough study on how we lived 5000 years ago can reveal how our habits, behavior, likes and dislikes, and basic nature, began and have evolved. Such as, were we nomadic or stationary? Liberal or chauvinistic? Feudal or capitalist? Or an amalgamation of all of the above? What was the economic, social and political system of that time, and what have we at present acquired from it? How we were socially organized? What language did we speak? What were the causes of change, evolution and, adaptation? How does an Islamic republic at present supersede our pagan past? These are the main questions that the project will seek to answer.

Similarities can be drawn, to demonstrate that Pakistani is synonymous with the Indus citizen.

The Ancient Silk Route is the second focus of this project. This route is one of the oldest paths and means of international trade, and probably the first form of globalization. A study of which is an essential aid to answering the above questions. It will help in seeing how this magnificent trade route influenced the culture of the Indus citizen, once it has been established what the Indus citizen was like in the beginning. The Indus region was part of the silk trade route. Hence what knowledge did this route impart and how did it change, and evolve the Indus citizen; its economic, political and social system? Did the Indus region flourish because of this route? Did the Indus citizen benefit from this route?

The Ancient Silk Route began in Xian in China and ended in Venice Italy. This famous route connected East Asia, Central Asia, and the Mediterranean for trade in silk from China to glass from Venice. Along this extensive path, other goods were exchanged according to what each region had to offer, and international migration began. The Silk Route thus, definitely influenced culture and helped in the development of the Indus civilization, as well as many others along the way. Perhaps it is because of this route that we harnessed a tradition of looking to other traditions, such as that of Central Asian, Indian, or Chinese, to confirm our own? Thus it will be important to look at what all was transmitted because of the trade route, such as knowledge, ideas, religion, people, as well as goods [Grotenhuis, 2001].

The Grand Trunk Road connects Kabul in Afghanistan to Calcutta in India. Its purpose in ancient times was as a channel for the import and export of trade between India, Central Asia and the West too, just like the Ancient Silk Route, but the goods were not specific, like silk for glass. Nor was it as vast as the silk route. It stretches across the Indus region 2000Kms to the west coast of India. The Grand Trunk road was also a road intended for travel regardless of trade, and it still exists and is used today. The Grand Trunk road was given its name by the British, however it was primarily called The Royal Road. Contrary to popular belief, this road was first constructed by Chandra Gupta during the Mauryan era 300 B.C.E, not Sher Shah Suri. The latter helped reconstruct it in the 16th century, as he recognized its fundamental importance to the flourishing of the region. The British also recognized this roads importance, and had it completely metalled to make it suitable for wheeled traffic. Up until then, this road only ran from Kabul to Delhi. The British extended it from Delhi to Calcutta.

The Grand Trunk Road has a rich history in itself, and deserves to be studied just because of that. It has obviously played a key role in the development of the Indus region, and beyond. It is where cultures have met and created that unique Pakistani Identity. A study of it will reveal how [Sarkar, 1998].

The Makran Coast located along the provinces of Sindh and Baluchistan, made them maritime coastal states open for trade and invasion. This project will only focus on the Makran coast as a sea gateway to trade for the Indus civilization, before the advent of Islam, formally, and hence before the invasion of the Arab Muslim General Mohammed Bin Qasim in the 8th Century. Both these provinces were intrinsic to the Indus civilization, as Moenjodaro, one of the capitals was situated here, in between these two provinces. Baluchistan at the time was known as Gedrosia, which is a Persian word. Thus, its location was either described as West Baluchistan, or in Sindh. Presently though Moenjodaro is formally placed in Sindh. Thus, the Makran coast served as a trading post for one of the most important capitals, as well as the rest of the region. There were five main trading coastal cities spanning the length of the entire coast. These cities were crucial for trade to the inland cities of the civilization, as well as development all around. They served the purpose of being trading stations or post, supplying goods to the entire Indus river valley. The flow of goods went back and forth; imports were sent north, and exports were sent south to the coast. With the increase in trade, the importance of the coastal cities grew, which led to their expansion in size, and complete urbanization. More land was cultivated in the vicinity which led to industrialization. The coastal cities supplied fish and seafood and shells inland.

The ancient coastline of the Indus civilization stretched much farther east than it does at present. Of course, the passage of time and history has redrawn the borders of civilization. At present the Pakistani Makran coast stretches 600 Km. It also has a visually distinct race from the rest of Pakistan that boasts of Arab/African features, rather than Indo-European. Were people transmitted along the sea trade route from Oman and Persia, and Africa? If they were, did they come as slaves, or as traders? Alexander also traversed this region. Did he leave behind any racial legacy, as is attributed to the north of Pakistan? Or are the Makranis a natural part of the Indus civilization? The Makran coast thus deserves special scrutiny on this point [Kenoyer 1998].

There are many aspects to the Pakistani identity. But once it has been determined prehistorically, it could be interesting to see how it is portrayed and perceived at present. Therefore I think a prologue would be essential to see how we have evolved, and reinforce that we are not an imported culture. What is Pakistani at present, or who is the contemporary Indus person? One such way to view the contemporary Indus person would be to look through the lens of contemporary Art, such as the Pakistani film Industry from 1947 till present. But that of course will require a whole separate proposal, once this project is complete.


PakHub.Info
Reclaiming Pakistans Identity
Join Us
Back to Top
Azat View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 22-Apr-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 110
  Quote Azat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 23:51
Oh Great man !Happy to see a true approach free from biases .
 
Pakistan has one of the greatest history a nation can be proud of  but due to certain religious factors Pakistanis and more precisely the Pakistani govt.try to overlook the great past just to lay more emphasis on its neo history that is not so great and its great history has been portrayed as some one else (Indian ) with the complicity of Pakistani scholars themselves. The genetic results have shown that most of the Pakistanis have indigenous ancestry so current version of history is just a travesty of the real past which was much more glorious.
 
Now both Indus Valley and Aryan civilization were Pakistani centric and should be a part of Pakistani heritage ,claim of Indian scholars to relate them to hinter lands are so hollow to  stand simple scrutiny by a common man.
 
Indus valley was never in any way was related to Dravidian people but the efforts of Hasan Dani in this regard does not find favour with Pakistani scholars themselves ,which  is an irony.Mahadevan Asko parpola Michael witzel all proved false when tested on genetics on archaeological and cultural factors and views of Hasan Dhani proved right when he pointed out Scythic past of its inhabitants more commonly identified with Jatts of today.
 
Now further scientific researches has substantiated Jat ancestry of its inhabitants based on crania reports of Indus valley skulls ,Dental reports  cultural similarity and hints provided by genetic analysis of present and Indus valley times' population.
 
Now if we look more precisely we have to take a nation that stretches between makran on east cost areas and areas around Delhi on western side Afghanistan on northern and Gujarat on southern side .It  had been one nation historically and people were of similar race that matched with current  populations that have scythe ancestry .
Again Aryans were too inhabitants of this area and vedic religion only made progression not the real people beyond Delhi neighbouring areas ,so people of eastern up or mp has nothing to do with the Aryans expect the fact some priest adopted these scriptures and than later wrote puranas on their own.
 
All great empires like Morya  Kushnas Parthian were originally belonged to this nation ,who moved east or west wards later and should more be a part of great historical legacy of a nation called Scythia ,Sindhu or Sindhu sauvira or Pakistan today .Though boundaries have been changing over a period of times but this nation has been more represented by Pakistan than India .I would call this nation as Saptha sindhva of ancient times.
 
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 06:48
Agree with Azat. There's a lot of false history, partly as a result of people government, education (or lack thereof), name confusions etc. Though I don't know where you get the Jatt ancestry of the IV from. They were a mix of people. Probably just as Pakistan is today.
 
 
 
 
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 16:41
Pakistan isn't allowed to have it's idenity.It must either be known as "Indian" or "Pakistani-Indian."

Edited by Distel - 12-May-2007 at 16:42
Back to Top
SpartaN117 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 10-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 09:09
Originally posted by Distel

Pakistan isn't allowed to have it's idenity.It must either be known as "Indian" or "Pakistani-Indian."


What? Nice argument

Its called the "Indus Identity", and it was limited to Pakistan, and it belongs to Pakistanis.

Indians dont come anywhere into this. A name change doesnt mean the people of Pakistan lost 9000 years of their history.

Please dont be ignorant, apart from the name, indus has nothing to do with Indians. It was separate from the rest of India for most of the history.

You can see this on Arab and Portuguese maps, they clearly mark out the Indus Valley, separate from India.

The British were the ones to mess everything up. They associated the terms hindoo and india with totally different meanings.


Edited by SpartaN117 - 16-May-2007 at 09:13

PakHub.Info
Reclaiming Pakistans Identity
Join Us
Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 10:44

Iran is a modern day state consisting of various ethnic groups (like India, Pakistan, Afghanistan) and was officially established in 1935 yet "ancient Iran" is a valid term since Iranian (mainly Persians) are proud of their ancient pre-Islamic identity yet "ancient Pakistan" is not a widely used term.

Most people you speak to today will hardly remember that Iran was founded in 1935, Afghanistan in 1747, India 1947 yet everyone remembers that Pakistan was "created' in 1947 thanks to Indian propagandists.
India has amongst the strongest propaganda machines in the world near the USA.


Edited by Distel - 16-May-2007 at 10:49
Back to Top
SpartaN117 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 10-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 11:51
See, thats where you are wrong.

Ancient Pakistan is a term, we plan on calling Pakistani history what it was actually called in ancient terms. Unlike Indians, who call everything Indian.

e.g Ancient Ghandara, Ancient Indus, Ancient Sindh

All these form Ancient Pakistani history. Ancient Pakistan is the term, but what it represents is the actual history of Pakistani people.

And, everyone knows Iran was called Persia, but Ancient Iran is used as a term to describe all the kingdoms which belonged to the iranian people.

Ancient Pakistan is simply a term. And just for the record, the people of South Asia never referred to themselves as "Indian" before the 18th century. They didnt even like it, when the Brits used the term.
The preferred terms like Punjabi, Sindhi, etc.

The whole world knows that it doesnt matter Pakistan was "created" in 1947. Because it doesnt mean the Pakistani people came into existance in 1947. The Pakistani identity is ancient.

You are right, the term "ancient something" couldnt be used, if the identity is new. Kinda like Israel, where most settlers are Jews from US, Germany, and Poland.
The term Ancient wouldnt really apply here.


Edited by SpartaN117 - 16-May-2007 at 11:54

PakHub.Info
Reclaiming Pakistans Identity
Join Us
Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 14:10
You got me wrong.All I said was ancient Pakistan is a valid term, however most people don't see it that way that's all.Now the reason ancient Iran is used by scholars and hstorians is because Iranians, being proud of their pre-Islamic history (beleive it or not some Iranians hate Arabs for bringing Islam into their country) and have always used the term since the founding of their country and presented their country that way to the rest of the world.
 
Pakistanis on the other hand are ashamed of their pre-Islamic past and extremly generally pro-Arab.Also the Indians are jelous of Pakistan's identity and history so they'll stop at nothing to claim it.(Who would you be more jelous of your freind or your enemy?)
 
That is why the term ancient Pakistan is not yet validated by most people.However that does not mean it is an invalid term since the ancestors of today's Pakistanis were the people of the indus.However it is still a fact that most historians would likely not use it due to the powerful Indian propaganda machine.
 
 


Edited by Distel - 16-May-2007 at 14:11
Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 14:24
PS-When i said Pakistanis aren't allowed to have their own history/identity I meant it since Indians will stop at nothing to claim it and appropriate it as theirs.
 
I didn't mean it in the sense that it's "wrong" of Pakistanis to be proud of their identity.
 
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.I am agreeing with you.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 14:27
Yes, its our history.
Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 14:31
Originally posted by Sparten

Yes, its our history.
 
Ofcourse it's our history and we must reclaim it before it's too late.If it wasn't for patriotic people like us, almost no one could argue with the Indian claims of stealing and falsifying our history.
Back to Top
SpartaN117 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 10-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 12:09
A lot of work is being done on this. Pakistan will soon be credited for the history of their own ancestors.

PakHub.Info
Reclaiming Pakistans Identity
Join Us
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2007 at 17:29

There is nothing exclusive to the "territory" called Pakistan or populace called Pakistani that can form the basis of a distinct Pakistani identity. Even Islam is not specific to "Pakistanis" as Judiasm is specific to Jews (an unbreakable relationship between a race and a religion retained over millinia and live in the memories of successive generations---so the historical continuity). And although, they have imported Urdu-Hindi and after "Islamizing" it, have defined it as a further element of Pakistani Identity, still every body knows that Urdu-Hindi has more to do with India than Pakistan.

 

Equally interesting is the desperation of secular "Pakistani" ideologues/intellectuals to engineer/ construct (or should I say "fabricate") a distinct identity for Pakistan. Basis their distinct Pak-identity argument on Indus Valley Civilization, which they claims to be confined to Pakistan only. Either they doesn't know or is ignoring the fact that this civilization flourished over a vast area extending over parts of north-west India and Pakistan. Three of the major six centers of Harrapn Culture are in India. They also forgets that Indus Valley Civilization is a dead civilization, isolated in time, and probably space also, that couldn't pass, in any substantial way, its influences to any ethnicity inhabiting Pakistan now. These Pakistanis historicans also don't take into account the fact that Pashtuns, Baluchis, Sindhis, and even Punjabis don't have any remotest sense of affiliation with Harrapan Civilization.

 

The fact is that Pakistan is not a geopolitical, cultural, or ethnic continuity---the commonalities between various ethnicities in Pakistan are very few and contradictions too huge and too many.

Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2007 at 20:45
The people of Pakistan are direct descendants of the Indus civilization.
 
No one is trying to "create" a distinct identity for Pkistan.the languages in Pakistan are not spoken in India except for urdu and Punjabi and the same is said for india.
 
If both countries share one province and should be labelled "the same" on that basis then PAKISTANIS should be known as "Iranians" because we share the Balochistan province with Iran.
 
If Indians can go about bragging about "ancient India" then there's no harm in Pakistanis doing so.
 
India is a western name given to South Asia it's not like South Asians ever reffered to themselves as "Indian" until the british gave them that name.
 
 
Back to Top
SpartaN117 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 10-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
  Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2007 at 21:14
Please stop about the indus valley rant. Its more Pakistani than anything. And the major centers? What are you talking about? All the major centers are in Pakistan, and there are only 3. Mehragh, Mohenjo daro and Harappa. Lothal certainly is not a center.

Just to clear it up, Indian is a very new identity. It came with the Brits who united you guys.

Pakistan started with the Indus Valley, not Pakistan as a "home land for muslims", but the identity. Might be hard for you to understand this, but consider this. If you claim Pakistanis cant have IVC, how can Indians?
(p.s Thats also assuming that you know the Dravid theory is false)

PakHub.Info
Reclaiming Pakistans Identity
Join Us
Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2007 at 23:51
LOl-when you speak of the differences in Pakistani ethnic groups i don't think you can compare it to that of the differences in the different ethnic groups in "India" and the contradictions in Indian propaganda.
 
Indus is a Pakistani based civilization.The reason why modern-day Pakistani culture differs from the Indus is because of religion-based culture.
 
 


Edited by Distel - 18-May-2007 at 23:53
Back to Top
maqsad View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 928
  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 00:43
Originally posted by 1234

There is nothing exclusive to the "territory" called Pakistan or populace called Pakistani that can form the basis of a distinct Pakistani identity.


Whether you like it or not there is a history unique to that reason that transcends the modern languages, sindhi, punjabi, saraiki, pashto, baloch. Those languages and dialects are spoken today due to influences from east and west of pakistan. On top of that there is a new language, urdu that has been created and more and more pakistanis are learning and using it every year. Urdu is different from Hindi which is becoming more and more sanscritized. Ironically sanscrit is also a creation of ancient pakistan(not ancient bharat) but thats another story.


Originally posted by 1234

Even Islam is not specific to "Pakistanis" as Judiasm is specific to Jews (an unbreakable relationship between a race and a religion retained over millinia and live in the memories of successive generations---so the historical continuity).



Nonsense. 90% of the Jews even in Israel are East European converts. Ashkenazis have certainly not been Jewish for millenia and Judaesm is a religion not a race anyway. Yeah its a closed one that does not encorage converts with the same fanaticism and Islam or Christianity but still, its a religion and most of its adherants are descendents of East European converts.  Learn some history before you go writing falseties.


Originally posted by 1234

And although, they have imported Urdu-Hindi and after "Islamizing" it, have defined it as a further element of Pakistani Identity, still every body knows that Urdu-Hindi has more to do with India than Pakistan.


You mean North Bharat? Utter Pradesh? You bharatis are doing the same thing with urdu/hindi. You made it the national language of Bharat.


Originally posted by 1234

Equally interesting is the desperation of secular "Pakistani" ideologues/intellectuals to engineer/ construct (or should I say "fabricate") a distinct identity for Pakistan.


Thats nowhere near as comical as Bharatis who steal Pakistani history from the Vedic period and turn it around and call it their own religion called "hinduism" which once again is a word invented by the British and actually pertains to the Indus valley which once again lies in PAKISTAN not BHARAT.


Originally posted by 1234

Basis their distinct Pak-identity argument on Indus Valley Civilization, which they claims to be confined to Pakistan only. Either they doesn't know or is ignoring the fact that this civilization flourished over a vast area extending over parts of north-west India and Pakistan.


Pakistan IS northwest India.


Originally posted by 1234

Three of the major six centers of Harrapn Culture are in India.


What?? Major?? Name them.

Originally posted by 1234

They also forgets that Indus Valley Civilization is a dead civilization, isolated in time, and probably space also, that couldn't pass, in any substantial way, its influences to any ethnicity inhabiting Pakistan now. These Pakistanis historicans also don't take into account the fact that Pashtuns, Baluchis, Sindhis, and even Punjabis don't have any remotest sense of affiliation with Harrapan Civilization.


Yeah they don't. Its ancient history. However the culture did evolve and mix over the centuries and the current day Pakistanis have the blood of the Indus valley inhabitants coursing through their veins, the pakistani temperament and culture is also descended in some part from those ancient inhabitants.


Originally posted by 1234


The fact is that Pakistan is not a geopolitical, cultural, or ethnic continuity---the commonalities between various ethnicities in Pakistan are very few and contradictions too huge and too many.



Four major languages. Whats funny is that India has around 40 major ones yet you keep talking about pakistanis. LOL
Back to Top
Distel View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 24-Mar-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Distel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 02:00
Yeah I keep trying to explain to these Indians and they just don't listen.They are full of contradictory when they try to kill Pakistan's culture.
 
Here's one for you:
They claim Hindi and Urdu to be the "same language" at the same time They claim that Urdu "comes from Hindi".
So that means Hindi came from Hindi .Wow that makes alot of sense.Cool
 
How about one more.They claim that Pakistanis are "Muslim invaders from the middle east."
At the same time they bluntly claim "Pakistanis are Indians" so that means Indians are calling themselves "Muslim invaders" from the Middle East.Quite hilarious.
Back to Top
maqsad View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 928
  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 03:16
We should refer to them as Bharatis not Indians in threads such as these.LOL Even the name India is stolen from pakistan(the real land of Indus, Sindh, Sapta Sindhu). They should be called Bharat or Gangastan or something like that. Each time they use the word/name Indian it makes it easier for them to steal history that does not belong to them.

And hindi/urdu being bharati? Maybe you could say that STREET hindi is bharati because  commoners in Uttar Pradesh speak it now but firstly it was ancient pakis which gave all of Bharat the language of Sanskrit and its vernacular derivatives. Vedism thrived in Punjab and thats a historical fact. Bharat only has about 3% of its people living in punjab and Pakistan has most of its people living in Punjab.

Well I guess if they keep wanting to relearn these history lessons then we will have to comply. Approve
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 03:57
This thread is walking a very fine line on the Code of Conduct. Remeber that excessive nationalism especially if it causes offense to others is prohibited.

Originally posted by SpartaN117


Just to clear it up, Indian is a very new identity. It came with the Brits who united you guys.

And I remind to you once again, that the word india is - at least - 2500 years old. And the entire subcontinent has been united - albeit briefly - several times before the English.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 10>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.