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Ethnic Processes among Nomads

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  Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ethnic Processes among Nomads
    Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 07:01

Dear all

I would like to offer you the topic which could be useful for understanding the history and development of ethnic groups of nomads?

For example Peter Golden writes:
Ethnic Processes in the Turkic World
It is apparent to even the casual observer, that the current demarcations of the Turkic peoples, in particular those in the Soviet Union, are the result of both complex historical processes and more immediate, specific political requirements. In some instances the differentiating "ethno-linguistic" criteria have, in reality, postdated not determined ethnogenesis. In others, minor variations have been exaggerated with a view towards separating otherwise closely related peoples. Thus, languages alone, in the modern era of nationbuilding, do not make nations, but nations, in a highly politicized process, frequently make languages. The antithesis of this approach has been to view the Turkic peoples as an undifferentiated or only very slightly differentiated mass. This, too, distorts historical reality. Any discussion of the ethnogenesis and formation of the Turkic peoples must bear in mind the extraordinary mobility of the pastoral nomads, the rapidity with which their political formations dissolved and reformed,often with a change of some of the ethno-tribal components. Any discussion of ethnogenesis must also bear in mind the distinction between land and people. Turkic groups, themselves often of diverse tribal origins and ethnic histories, became political masters of lands that had very complex ethnic antecedents. Onto the original base of a non-Turkic population (usually Iranian, in Central Asia), itself the product of various ethnic strata, were grafted several waves of Turkic peoples at different times. Some degree of amalgamation, assimilation occurred,producing, in essence, a new but often still far from homogeneous people. Reflections of disparate origins may be seen in the material culture as well.
Thus, the diversity of saddle arches used by a single Turkic people points to the variety of ethnic groups and subgroups that came to compose this people. The Ozbeks/Uzbeks provide one such example of a modern day Turkic people that has evolved, in a series of complex layers, out of a variety of Turkic and Iranian ethnics. Iranian speech is still a commonplace in "Uzbek" cities. One of the remarkable features of Turkic history is the spread of the Turkic languages. As the language of the military-political elite in Central Asia and the Near and Middle East, it spread considerably beyond its physical borders. Nomadic populations, given the limitations of the nomadic economy, were usually smaller than those of their sedentary neighbors. Non-Turkic peoples, or groups of them, adopted the language without much in the way of actual mixing, at least in the early stages. In Central Asia and the Middle East, this could involve populations of some size. Examples of this may also be seen in those groups that adopted Turkic speech but because threads that join Ottomans, Tatars, Ozbeks and more distantly the Chuvash.
There are also significant points of divergence. Some scholars have preferred to underscore the elements held in common, others the differences. Presentday political considerations have not been entirely absent in the positions taken. Levels of national or ethnic consciousness are always difficult to measure. These may vary from individual to individual within a group as well as from group to group. The attitudes of medieval people are even more difficult to assess given the gulf of time and dearth of sources. In the course of this work, we shall be looking for both the ties that bind and the meaningful differences that distinguish.

 
1. What do you think guys, what was the more important for ethnic processes among nomads?
a. political factor, when states formed nations
b. ethnolinguistic factor


Edited by niki - 25-Apr-2007 at 07:13
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 15:11
Hello Niki (if that’s your real name).

Well, any classification and meaning related to nomads has got its own problem:

1- Ethnicity: (Although, here in AE, some people believe Turks were Asiatic originally and some believe they were Caucaid, but) Nomads because of the nature of their life intermixed with each other and also with foreigners a lot. Among all of modern Turkic state populations, both Asiatic and Caucaid people could be observed. If the first Turks (the people who started such a tradition) were Caucaid, so is Asiatic population in Turkic countries of a foreign origin? The same question could be raised if we believe old Turks were Asiatic.

2- Language: There of scholars who believe modern Asiatic population in Central Asia are Chengiz Khan’s Mongols who adopted Turkic language. Others believe modern day Azeri people are Iranians and Armenians who were conquered by Turks and Turkic language was compelled to them? Who, do you think, owns the Turkic language?

3- Culture: Culture which subject to change by time (because it’s only a way to act, which is considered normal in a certain society and differs from one to another), is related mostly to the environment. Only a small percentage of old traditions are preserved. Step nomads didn’t have a stable home; each of them were dueling in a different place from that of the other. What’s more, we all know that many tribes had started to choose fixed homes (villages and cities). So, the living habits, behavior, etc would be different.

4- Political borders: This rather new classification is also not suitable, because of all those migrations nomads did to neighbor countries. Lots of Turks and Mongols today live in China, but are they Chinese? Turkmens, Uzbeks and Kazaks live in Iran and Afghanistan, but are they Iranian or Afghani? Hazaras of Afghanistan are believed to be of Mongol descent, but they reside in Afghanistan and Iran and speak Farsi as their mother tongue.

Edited by gok_toruk - 30-Apr-2007 at 15:13
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  Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2007 at 04:36
Dear gok-toruk
niki is my nickname from real nameWink.
Of course all samples you listed actually on the side of political factor, when after conquest of Turkic tribes, conquired peoples began to bear new ETHNIC name. In this case first of all we must provide good theoretical basement to the term "Nomadic  State". May be they just adopt the name of the state or (it is better to think) - name of the "titular" Clown nation. May be some administrative regions called by names of tribes of dominating nomads, that's why we could have situation when there are diversity of ethnic origin, language and culture. I did not satisfied all theoris about nomadic states (i.e. states established by nomads). Many scholars did not recognized nomadic polities as a states, or at least recognized them as "early states".
But I would like to consider this topic within the Great Steppe region, i.e. within nomadic world itself. The ethnic process within Nomadic World. They say that tribal consciousness prevailed among nomads and there was no any supertribal (i.e. national or ethnic) self-consciousness. This is a problem of Western and Russian nomadic studies. If there is no supertribal ethnic consciousness, what about Turk rebellion of Qutluq (Ilteres) when they fought for "Turk Il". I think we must take into consideration the process of assimilation and mixing which actually takes a lot of time, at least 3-4 generations. I don't believe that after conquest of Mongols all peoples automatically would call themself as Mongols. It must be "anthropocentric" anthropologySmile when psycology of individuals should be taken into considerartion, I think
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 14:27

I think, you got me wrong. I would vote for ethnolinguistic factor; that's for sure, simply because it's got its own firm bases in history. I was pointing out some problems these factors might have. I don't agree Political Factors is the most important factor. 

Now, why don't you explain more about the way you think about nomads and ethnicity in Central Asia? Don't be general; go on and be informative.


Edited by gok_toruk - 05-May-2007 at 07:19
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  Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 00:54

Sorry for my late answer, I thought that answer notification is turnned on.  It is very difficult to be more "informative" in such topics, because we should create some ideal structure, theory. We need it just because of absence of it at all.

I think that nomadic states (or so called "tribal unions") were main means of ethnogenesis in Great Steppe. I would like to consider nomadic state as El, i.e. some polity united by genealogical structure which used as military-administrative system. Of course here we can say that if they were united by genealogical tree (sanjyra, shejere) we can talk about ethnolinguistic factor, but  the problem is - that genealogy is always falsificated, and falsificated because of political factor.
Unfortunately I don't have time now, later I will be more informativeSmile
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