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About the study of african history.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: About the study of african history.
    Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 18:34
Originally posted by Tk101

i highly doubt that...
whats the validation of such a term?
your personal intuition?
 
Sorry fellow but if you don't know is YOUR fault, not mine.
 
Ask any person born in the Mediterranean sea about the relations between the people in there, and they will tell. There are even songs that speak about that.
 
The idea that the world is divided between BLACKS and WHITES comes from the U.S. and from the North of Europe. People that don't have a clue about the peoples that live sourrounding the Mediterranean from Gibraltar to Turkey and the Levante. Those were the same territories UNIFIED by the Roman Empire!
 
Lol! It is so disgusting people of Anglo-Saxon culture keep repeating theirs ignorance about other cultures. More so, that they try to lecture in history to the subject of them.
 
Yes, you'll say I am a South American and not a Spaniard or Italian. But you are WRONG if you believe Latin Americans don't know the history of the Mediterranean peoples of Europe.
 
Sorry but I get upset when White and Black people of anglosaxon culture pretend  the Mediterranean peoples don't exist Angry
 
Pinguin
 
 
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Posts: 60 		  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 16:47
i highly doubt that...
whats the validation of such a term?
your personal intuition?


Edited by Tk101 - 25-Apr-2007 at 16:50
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 15:20

If you have ever heard about Mediterranean diet, Mediterranean architecture, and Mediterranean family style, you will realize that people of the Mediterranean sea are all related, not only by genetics by also by culture and ancient traditions.

Is not that Italy is the Lebannon of Lybia is Greece; they are different, but they have more thing in common that people usually believe.
 
That's the point
 
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Posts: 60 		  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 22:39
hmm if i understood you correctly then i agree with you... its strange that people people would say new guineans are realted to africans, or african americans just becuse they look similar...the same is true for so called european looking people of the levant, Nafrican, and south west asia...
i think they can look like them all they wont but they could never be ( white) like them


Edited by Tk101 - 24-Apr-2007 at 22:44
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 22:34
Originally posted by Tk101

medit race? oh ok...sounds very strange to have everyone on the Medit sea related? sounds like a biased view to me...

not stranger than having all 'white' or 'black' people related
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Posts: 60 		  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 20:13
well pingiun i dont really care for one sided biased views of the past...the only clear cut ideas of the past is an omni-version..besides its not a matter of what i accept...I really dont care for Spanards or N. africans... the only thing i'm interested in is the truth... hence my signature..
 
medit race? oh ok...sounds very strange to have everyone on the Medit sea related? sounds like a biased view to me...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 10:32
Originally posted by Tk101

hmm
 Pingiun
I tend to agree with most of waht you said. sometimes things aren't always what they seem... all becuase people look like you does that mean that they are genetically similar to you? if what you say is true...would it be safe to say that most spainish are N. African variants?...
 
 also what was the reason why after the 12th century, iberia had the most advanced kindgoms in Europe?
 
Simple. For Spaniards exists the Moors and the Blacks. Two distinct peoples. If not a matter of drops more or less. Is a matter that the people is different. Actually, you find people related to the Moors all around the Mediterranean from the Middle East to the Canarias and from Spain to Turkey. That's the Mediterranean people, of race if you wish.
 
Muslim Spain was founded by Arabs and most of the Muslims were local Spaniards. Mediterranean berbers were part of the troops.  Almoravidis have nothing to do with the Golden Age of Al-Andalus. Actually they were, perhaps, the cause of the cathastrophe.
 
That's the history and those are the facts.
 
Why don't you accept them?
 
Pinguin
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 24-Apr-2007 at 10:35
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 09:55

Actually tk101, I would say that Iberia had the most advanced kingdoms in Europe before the 12th century, and not after. The fundamentalist Almoravids and Almohads snuffed out the cultural brilliance of Al-Andalus. It was during the Ummayad Caliphate of Cordoba and even during the Taifas states that the so-called Moors in Spain were at the peak of their culture. The reasons are numerous and it's a lengthy discussion, but suffice to say that Islam was more advanced scientifically and culturally than Western Europe until about the 12th century, when Europe started to catch up. By the 16th, Western Europe was clearly ahead of Islam in most respects.

On an added note, some of the moors, specifically the Al-Murabit, or Almoravids, did come from Sub-Sharan Africa, as opposed to the Maghreb. They started out as a warrior monk group in the Senegal valley, before they conquered the Maghreb and Al-Andalus.
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Posts: 60 		  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 09:33
hmm
 Pingiun
I tend to agree with most of waht you said. sometimes things aren't always what they seem... all becuase people look like you does that mean that they are genetically similar to you? if what you say is true...would it be safe to say that most spainish are N. African variants?
also is their something wrong with NAfrians Moors being related to SSA's? they have been both on the continent for thousands of years so..it is only to be expected that they would be related... also what does it matter if MOors were mixed or not?
also now that i think about it...when ever we would quote genetic tests and such...do we as laymen REALLY understand whats is being stated and also can what the scientist say is trust worthy?
 
 also what was the reason why after the 12th century, iberia had the most advanced kindgoms in Europe?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 21:16
Look, I believe all humans are equaly smart. Some were lucky enough in developing civilizations and others were not. In the case of Africa I admire the arts of Subsaharan Africa, the architecture of Zimbabwe and people like the Zulu warriors that defeated the British army once.
 
However, I don't like people think the Moors belong to Subsaharan Africa, because they don't. Now, Bayou could know a lot about Africa but I doubt he knows as much as I do about Spain, that's my culture.
 
We know the Moors, TK101, because they are part of the genetic pool of Spain even today. Millions of Spaniards today look like theirs fellows across
the Gibraltar Strait. Most Kabyles can pass for Spaniards without problem, for instance. They were the Moors of Spain, and they are still called Moor in Spain. No matter than Spaniards also called Moor to any Muslim.
 
So, when someone want to "teach me" or "revealing me" Spain's history I get upset. For that they should have read the "Mio Cid", The works of Henry X the Wise, and all what I do know about Spain. After all, most of my ancestors came from there.
 
That's it :)
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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Posts: 60 		  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 19:21

lol..i laughed at the whole thing...but you shouldn't battle against Bayou. he seems to know what he's talking about...but i can't say i perticularly agree with what you said though...

 
I also  though about the reasons why civilization didn't come about in certain places around the world. Perhaps for some of africa's cultures perhaps we can list reasons towards  SOME cultures on the continent didn't develop into states.... i know in general for the central and tropical regions... the local populous had to deal with living  away from water ,which is one of the main catalysts to civilization.Bodies of waters in tropical regions usually have an abondance of life and that includes mosquitos with malaria... From memory i can observe that not many civilizations sprang up in any of the worlds tropical forest regions...but i due recall 1 or 2 coming about in central rain forest region...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 00:39
Originally posted by Tk101

...
and Pinguin nice stunt on biodiversity forum....
 
How do you like it?
 
I hope you agreed with me LOL
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Posts: 60 		  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 00:10
hmm so far this tread has been interesting... i think to take it to the next level by adding sources for claims...this sources of course would have to be acceptable....
and Pinguin nice stunt on biodiversity forum....
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 21:49
Originally posted by X-Ras

...
Civilization wasn't introduced to those West African kingdoms. Islam played a part only in trade and in the wealth and influence of the Upperclass, but most of the citizens were *NOT* Muslims themselves. Islam is only a religion, nothing more. Urbanism in West Africa *PRECEDES* Islam, the same with the Swahili states. If you ever the Peripulus of the Erytherean Sea you would know that coastal rding cities existed before Islam. The information is there to be found just search.


As for influence, Greece and Rome received influences from the Near East so are they less of a civilization because of this? No. Interaction and trade enriches a civilization, it doesn't dilute it.
 
Writing was introduced by Muslims, ship building Arab style was introduced by Muslims. Madrasas (centers of learning or universities) where introduced by them as well, together with libraries.  Even more, West African Kindoms developed thanks to transaharan commerce, particularly of gold, salt, ivory and slaves.
 
So, there was a link between that region and the outside world, from which influences travelled. That's why many historians don't agree that those kingdoms represent a local civilization but more a variation of the Mediterranean civilizations, spreaded by Islam.
 
Nothing wrong with that. There are quite a few places that are considered original civilization: China, India, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Mesoamerica and Peru are the places usually mentioned and no more. For instance, Greece is not considered original either, but derivated of ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, through Crete. Rome is even more detached from being original.
 
The celtic and germanic peoples of Northern Europe are not considered the creators of a civilization either. They developed interesting cultures but not civilizations.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 16:18
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by X-Ras

The architectural designs found in the Swahili States have been found no place else but there, so they are not Miidle eastern in origin, they are distinctly Swahili....


The Swahili region is a quite interesting culture. If you have more info, just post them.


But does them developed large urban complexes before they entered in contact with Arabs and Indonesians?


That's the question to answer.


Every human group have a culture. Civilization is a term restricted to urban cultures that develop complex architecture, public highways, large regular armies, universities, and things like that, and where large social problems have been solved, and there has been development of specialized skills, formal religion, writing, mathematics, metalurgy, etc. Itwas a level that was achived without external help in Egypt, Nubia and perhaps Ethiopia in Africa, but that was induced in other places of Africa. For instance, the Kingdoms of West Africa (Mali, Ghana, Sonhai) developed under the influence of Islam.


So, the critical question is: does the Swahilli region got a level of complexity enough to be classified as a civilization, without external help?



Pinguin


Civilization wasn't introduced to those West African kingdoms. Islam played a part only in trade and in the wealth and influence of the Upperclass, but most of the citizens were *NOT* Muslims themselves. Islam is only a religion, nothing more. Urbanism in West Africa *PRECEDES* Islam, the same with the Swahili states. If you ever the Peripulus of the Erytherean Sea you would know that coastal rding cities existed before Islam. The information is there to be found just search.


As for influence, Greece and Rome received influences from the Near East so are they less of a civilization because of this? No. Interaction and trade enriches a civilization, it doesn't dilute it.
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Posts: 60 		  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:39
X-ras.. i think i have heard of you before on another thread...but i tend to go with the idea that sometime in the future when people get over their bais behavior...  more pieces of the puzzle known as african history wil appear... who knows what kinds of things they will discover... there could be large urban expanse under the ocean of sand in the Sahara or even in the central rain forests... i believe last year or using satelite imagery they discovered ruins of city in either south america of in africa..i forget which...My memory of it is hazed right now...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:10
Originally posted by X-Ras

The architectural designs found in the Swahili States have been found no place else but there, so they are not Miidle eastern in origin, they are distinctly Swahili....
 
The Swahili region is a quite interesting culture. If you have more info, just post them.
 
But does them developed large urban complexes before they entered in contact with Arabs and Indonesians?
 
That's the question to answer.
 
Every human group have a culture. Civilization is a term restricted to urban cultures that develop complex architecture, public highways, large regular armies, universities, and things like that, and where large social problems have been solved, and there has been development of specialized skills, formal religion, writing, mathematics, metalurgy, etc. It was a level that was achived without external help in Egypt, Nubia and perhaps Ethiopia in Africa, but that was induced in other places of Africa. For instance, the Kingdoms of West Africa (Mali, Ghana, Sonhai) developed under the influence of Islam.
 
So, the critical question is: does the Swahilli region got a level of complexity enough to be classified as a civilization, without external help?
 
 
Pinguin
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 14:26
The architectural designs found in the Swahili States have been found no place else but there, so they are not Miidle eastern in origin, they are distinctly Swahili. Pinguin, don't set up strawmen arguments to knock down, no on said anything about Black Olmecs.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 10:16

Oh no. Once again!

 
 
Sorry Decebal, I leave it now. I going to get concentrated in the history of Americas thread. I know Blacks Olmecs are comming Big%20smile
 
Good luck with your new fellow
 
Pnguin
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 04:11
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, I don't think Toynbee is wrong.

Subsaharan African didn't develop an atonishing original civilization. I don't think that is racism but just stating a fact. Other peoples like the North Central Asian Nomads, the Samis, the Ainus,the Australians,the Amazonians and the Polynesians didn't develop an original civilization either. They developed cultures but not original civilizations.

That doesn't mean they are "inferior" people at all. It is just the way it was.


Now, that doesn't meanthe Subsaharan Region don't have marvels that are worth to study, starting by Zimbabwe, Eredo and the Ife brozes.


Pinguin




What do you mean that sub-Saharan Africa never developed an original civilization? BS!
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