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Reconstruction or Industrialisation?

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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Reconstruction or Industrialisation?
    Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 15:59

Last night over dinner Mr. B and I got into a huge disagreement about societial changes in 19th century America. I said the biggest changes came about because of the civil war/reconstruction, Mr. B says the industrial revolution changed society more.

What do you think?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 17:11

Sorry, but I agree with Mr. B.

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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 18:19
why do you say that?
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 18:34
İ also agree with Mr B. industrial revolution affected society but industrial revolution also affected civil war to.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 18:38
Originally posted by SugarTEa

why do you say that?
 
Because it had a profound impact in changing lifestyles (for better or worse) and bringing about new inventions in all industrialising nations at the time, not just the US.
 
The same question could be asked of the Franco-Prussian war, did it have more of a major impact on German and French society or ...
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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 18:54
yeah but im talking only about in America
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 19:10

Because it had a profound impact in changing lifestyles (for better or worse) and bringing about new inventions whereas the civil war and reconstruction amounted only to death and destruction and a restoration to something resembling the previous status quo, with some legal and constitutional changes.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 11:57
Because IR partly caused CivWar
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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 18:29
okay, but then again you show no support for your argument.., please tell me more because right now i feel like opinion is a bit vague... 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 19:11
It would have been somewhat more ocnstructive had you originally posted with supporting evidence for your own argument - you just presented to contrary argument and asked us which one we agreed on.
 
So now, why do you hold your opinion on the matter?  How do you justify it?
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 19:41
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Because IR partly caused CivWar


That is correct, the Civil War was partly about whether America would follow its agrarian slave holding past or would join the race for modernisation.

Industrialisation was the bigger change, the Civil was was partly a product of that.
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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 00:33
Why was the Civil War caused by the Industrialization?


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 00:55
Originally posted by SugarTEa

Why was the Civil War caused by the Industrialization?


 
The Industrialization was partially the cause of the American Civil War due to split consensus and polarization of two interest groups of vast political importance, the north had its industrialists who found no favor in slavery nor in following the Jeffersonian dream of an agrarian nation, they were factory owners, they saw the potential in industrializing, and in turn improving their financial lot as well. On the other hand the south had largely an agrarian mind set, the Jeffersonian model *excluding the slavery AFAIK* followed a simple national theory. Cities should be minuscule and few and far between, agrarianism should be dominant in the new young nation, the United States and its citizens should be agrarian based, the cities serve administrative functions. That is a typical  outlook of many in the pre-Industrialization age. He falsely foresaw that the agrarian based economy would be dominant, therefore, the United States should follow that route. In the south such a theory found acceptance, as the plantations and individual lots supported that theory, to them they saw themselves and their industry as the future, of course just like the Industrial barons of the north, the agrarian ones of the south looked to their own pockets. Such a drastic change would mean that the significance of their industry would reduce, with that of course their income as well; not to mention their political influence. The two camps defiantly lobbied. Both won in the lobby category as the Civil War sparked off, the agrarians in the end lost, and the United States is the Industrial power of the world today.
 
PS: I am not claiming that to be the main, or only reason, just one of the major reasons for the start of the Civil War.
 
 
 
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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 02:06
oh ok, i understand now...

Another question though..  1760s to 1880s, In America, what were main societal and political changes during this time?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 20:30
Originally posted by SugarTEa

oh ok, i understand now...

Another question though..  1760s to 1880s, In America, what were main societal and political changes during this time?
 
This is a good topic, because the period you indicate made the US what it is.
 
There was not that much change from 1760 to about the 1830s.  Economic activity and interests revolved mostly around agriculture, and on the east coast, trade.  Major changes in society, and also in politics were centered in the expanding population and its movement west of the Allegheny mountains.  A large part of this movement was down the Ohio River to the new western territories, and away from New England and the commercial interests there, and from the landed interests of the South.  Most of the migrants west were freehold farmers, and concerned for their interests, not those of the "cocked hats" of the East.
 
In 1828, Andrew Jackson was the first westerner elected president, indicating a change was underway.
 
By the 1840s, the next major change was underway - the immigration of large numbers of Welsh, and especially Irish newcomers.  The potato blight in Ireland was a spur to immigration, and the developing iron founding industry in the northeast US needed labor, particularly miners.  this changed the character of the population in a couple of ways - Irish were overwhelmingly Catholic, and changed the size and the makeup of cities, and those cities were in the North to start.  Population growth was starting to leave the South behind.
 
The nature of the US Constitution allocates political power mostly according to population, but the number of new states also had an impact.  Were these states to be "slave" states, or free?  Opinion on that had changed overall to the point that the South saw its influence deteriorating.  Both economic and social factors were driving the North/West and the South apart.  compromise, which had worked for decades, failed in 1860, and the Civil War resulted.  That ended southern political power until recent times. 
 
I have always thought of the Civil War as the true American Revolution; the war for independence being a civil war among Englishmen to validate what already existed - that we had run our own affairs independent of the English Crown (3,000 mile and several months away) for 150 years.  I don't know what others think.
 
Anyway, the War industrialized the US of necessity, and the entire nature of America changed from 1865 to about 1880.  People who had never been 20 miles from home in an agricultural society became somewhat more mobile.  Some moved west; more came as immigrants and found work in the shops and factories and mines and on the railroads that were not there much before 1860. 
 
The industrialization of the 1860s was war-related.  In the 1870s and 1880s, not so.  But the basis was there.  The modern US had been born by about 1880, we just didn't know it til about 1900.
 
Hope this helps.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 10-Apr-2007 at 10:13
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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 22:26
There was not that much change from 1760 to about the 1830s. [/QUOTE]
SO You think the Slave Trade in 1808 had nothing to do with any shaping of America? Or maybe actually King Phillips War?

If so, why?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 09:55
Originally posted by SugarTEa

There was not that much change from 1760 to about the 1830s.

SO You think the Slave Trade in 1808 had nothing to do with any shaping of America? Or maybe actually King Phillips War?

If so, why?
[/QUOTE]
 
Congress prohibited the IMPORTATION of slaves in 1807.  Slavery still existed where it had before until 1865.  Economic realities did not encourage further prohibition until the exertions of the war made it inevitable politically.
 
I am not expert on economic history, but I recall that general trends in Southern agriculture around 1800 were making slave labor uneconomical...far too labor intensive (not wages, but too many people to feed).  Then, the development and distribution of the cotton gin had the effect of making the production of cotton fiber profitable enough to keep the economic, and social, model of the South as it had been.  (EDIT:  I mean the dominant social/political model, not the huge number of small freeholders in the South who did their own farming...you can't eat cotton) 
 
So, to a small degree industrial change (actually technological change) had an effect on RETARDING Southern development.  While in the mid-19th century, the North was beginning to develop industries like ferrous metals, mining and railroads, the South was developing only minimally.  Immigration fueled population growth, factories and capital were created in the North, and the South remained almost totally agrarian and underdeveloped.
 
I don't think the Act of 1807 had much impact on the "shaping" of America.  America started to shape with the movement away from the east coast of population (politics), and with the creeping industrialization (economy) that began to change the whole society up through the Civil War.  The more profound "shaping" was in the several decades after 1860.
 
About King Phillip's War, I have no idea.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 10-Apr-2007 at 10:11
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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 13:45
[/QUOTE]This is a good topic, because the period you indicate made the US what it is.
 
There was not that much change from 1760 to about the 1830s.  Economic activity and interests revolved mostly around agriculture, and on the east coast, trade.  Major changes in society, and also in politics were centered in the expanding population and its movement west of the Allegheny mountains.  A large part of this movement was down the Ohio River to the new western territories, and away from New England and the commercial interests there, and from the landed interests of the South.  Most of the migrants west were freehold farmers, and concerned for their interests, not those of the "cocked hats" of the East.
 
In 1828, Andrew Jackson was the first westerner elected president, indicating a change was underway.
 
By the 1840s, the next major change was underway - the immigration of large numbers of Welsh, and especially Irish newcomers.  The potato blight in Ireland was a spur to immigration, and the developing iron founding industry in the northeast US needed labor, particularly miners.  this changed the character of the population in a couple of ways - Irish were overwhelmingly Catholic, and changed the size and the makeup of cities, and those cities were in the North to start.  Population growth was starting to leave the South behind.
 
The nature of the US Constitution allocates political power mostly according to population, but the number of new states also had an impact.  Were these states to be "slave" states, or free?  Opinion on that had changed overall to the point that the South saw its influence deteriorating.  Both economic and social factors were driving the North/West and the South apart.  compromise, which had worked for decades, failed in 1860, and the Civil War resulted.  That ended southern political power until recent times. 
 
I have always thought of the Civil War as the true American Revolution; the war for independence being a civil war among Englishmen to validate what already existed - that we had run our own affairs independent of the English Crown (3,000 mile and several months away) for 150 years.  I don't know what others think.
 
Anyway, the War industrialized the US of necessity, and the entire nature of America changed from 1865 to about 1880.  People who had never been 20 miles from home in an agricultural society became somewhat more mobile.  Some moved west; more came as immigrants and found work in the shops and factories and mines and on the railroads that were not there much before 1860. 
 
The industrialization of the 1860s was war-related.  In the 1870s and 1880s, not so.  But the basis was there.  The modern US had been born by about 1880, we just didn't know it til about 1900.
 
Hope this helps. [/QUOTE]

Hmm...
I was reading over this post which was very helpful, But I noticed a few things and was pondering a few questions in my head. Your approach so far in dealing with the War of American Independence is very thin. the "societal and political changes in America" thereafter largely stem from that struggle and the political changes from it. The Colonists believed that their ancient English Rights had been violated, but what drove them to that conclusion? With independence, why did the Colonists not set up a governing system similar to that of England? Think Enlightenment and the changes that had occurred in England/Europe from the middle 17th century onward.

What happened in the lives of Americans in the wake of Independence? What about the resulting failures of the Confederation, to address the problems of the newly independent States, and how the economy was affected? Even more Revolutionary was the Constitution. Why did the Founders feel it was necessary? What other choices might they have tried? How did the Constitution come to assume the form that it did?The Founders tended to be well-educated men of property. How did that affect their thinking when drafting a new government? The U.S. Constitution was based largely on a Roman model, but even so represented an entirely new way of structuring government. The strengths and weaknesses of that structure are with us still. In the early Republic, say up until 1828, Americans were still trying to adapt themselves to new ways of governing. The rise of a two-Party system wasn't intentional, but wasn't it inevitable?

!!!!Why was Jackson's election so important to the direction that later followed?!!!! How and why was Jacksons war against the Bank so important, and how did that affect the American social and political environment.
Why didn't slavery die out as the Founders believed that it would? What drove American expansion into the Northwest Territories, into Florida and into Texas? You seem to be saying that it was population pressure. Is that all it was, or did Americans somehow begin to dream of Manifest Destiny? Why didn't compromise over slavery work (think both politics and social expectations)??..


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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 14:09
Ok I don't the begining of the slightest answer to your numerous and specific questions but here is understanding for the causes of the civil war and the main point of socio-economic change in the US from 1830 to 1900: the new bipolaristation of the country (East coast/West coast as opposed to North/South).

Indeed the US are particular in the sense that 1)they have no urban history roughly before the 1750s as opposed to the other continents and thus are path-dependency-free 2) are a unified country and thus no more than one or two major city can live on its administrative captation of the country's wealth.

In this type of things the first comer take it all. See for instance cities like Paris, London or even Bagdad or Tokyo have never seen their position as the country's #1 administrative, political, industrial, commercial capitale contested by another town. This is because of the law of the increasing returns (one factory settle in a point A so this same point A will have a comparative advantage as a location for any footloose industry, etc).

Only California was sufficiently new, afar and different to slowly rise as a competitor to the NE region. On the contrary, the economic and cultural environment of the South never gave it a chance to concurence the North's lead. Yet it wasn't ready to see its wealth fading away without standing a good fight ie a good war.

A bit as if all the US economy was suddenly shifting to Mexico, the US would fight to try to get back by military means what it failed to conserved by economic one.
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  Quote SugarTEa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 14:36
okay, i understand about the civil war mostly..., but i have another question for maharbbal...

what about before 1865, like from 1763-1865..., how would you characterize the  societal and political changes in America? What would you say were the primary factors and influences that determined these changes? Were they simple modifications of existing structures and traditions or did they represent a radical departure from earlier periods?
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