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Female Infanticide's Effect on Race

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Rajputana View Drop Down
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  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Female Infanticide's Effect on Race
    Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 09:14
Dowry has been part of Indian culture since long and for this reason most of the rural/urban Indian society has valued men more than women.  Birth of a girl meant the family would have to come up with dowry in order for her to be married within the same caste/race/tribe whereas the birth of a boy meant that dowry would be received by the family.
 
The practice of female infanticide led to men acquiring wives from different castes in most instances those of lower castes or tribes hailing from distant areas that were not genetically of the same makeup.  In my opinion, throughout India, from the North to the South, female infanticide has played a major role in castes intermixing and interbreeding. 
 
 
Originally posted by British Gazetteer (Muzaffarnagar U.P.)

Under the provision of Act VIII of 1870 inquiries were instituted regarding the practice of female infanticide in this district. In July 1870 the Magistrate reported that 230 villages were suspected and that 36 were particularly guilty, but the report was so incorrectly drawn up, that no action could be taken, and the matter was ailowed to lie over till the census of 1872. A fresh report was made in March 1873, with a detailed list of all the villages proposed for proclamation. In the first place, those parganas were selected in which the percentage of female minors fell bebw 40 per cent, of the total minor popula­tion. Then those villages were taken which had a reasonably large minor population, and in which the percentage fell below 35. The entire number of villages coming under repression, according to this standard, was 130, inhabited by Rajputs, Jats, Tagas and Gujars. Among the Rajputs the Kachhwahas, Jhoti-janas, Pundirs and Chauhaus wore the worst offenders. Ten Pundir villages, seven Jhotiyana, two Chauhan and two Kachhwaha villages came within the rule. Further, 48 Jat, 43 Gujars, and 18 Taga villages were proclaimed from the 1st of April 1873. At the end of the year a further revision took place which resulted in the exemption of 36 villages, leaving 94 on the register in May 1874. Since that date the number of Proclaimed villages has been gradually reduced as the people show signs of improvement. No cases of infanticide have been reported in the district for several years, and in 1901 there were only six villages proclaimed under the Act. Nor is it considered necessary to keep these any longer on the list, and Government has been recommended to withdraw them from the operations of the Act.
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 10:09
If you quote from the British period document, there there is two sides of the issue dealt with.
 
You cannot say that dowry has been part of Indian society, as it is there in other societies also.
 
Take the question of widow-burning and witch- burning, etc., it was dealt with the British differently in the same period.
 
Female infracticide has been the extremity of anti-woman crime perpetuated by the vested groups in every society.
 
The difference is how a bullet is fired at a woman or a stove bursts - the victims is the same with the reasons behind.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 15:21
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

If you quote from the British period document, there there is two sides of the issue dealt with.You cannot say that dowry has been part of Indian society, as it is there in other societies also. Take the question of widow-burning and witch- burning, etc., it was dealt with the British differently in the same period.Female infracticide has been the extremity of anti-woman crime perpetuated by the vested groups in every society.The difference is how a bullet is fired at a woman or a stove bursts - the victims is the same with the reasons behind.
 
Mr. Rao I'm not saying Dowry is exclusive to India, nor is for that matter infanticide.  I am, however, leaning towards the theory that due to this system many tribes started to practice female infanticide because they were not able to pay dowry hence putting greatly out of proportion the male to female ration in the country HENCE not being able to acquire brides from the same race or tribe AND EVEN having to SHARE BRIDES amongst brothers (prominent amongst many people of India and also folk songs of Jats).
 
Trust me as a person of Indian origin I have no personal vendetta against the nation, just think that the truth should be told.
 
 
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 17:50
Good thread, and interesting hypothesis you have there Rajputana.
 
Could be right.
 
 
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 19:49
Among the tribals of any any society such contigency would be forced upon because of external circumstances, as otherwise, the so-called mother-loving Indians or any group would not have succumbed to such acts.
 
So give details, why one tribe or a particular tribe resorted to such practice?
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 20:53
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

Among the tribals of any any society such contigency would be forced upon because of external circumstances, as otherwise, the so-called mother-loving Indians or any group would not have succumbed to such acts.
 So give details, why one tribe or a particular tribe resorted to such practice?
 
 
Mr. Rao as to your query with regards to the reason for resorting to this act:
 
  • Too much dependency on an Agricultural economy: Most important for farming society, as India has been in the past, the fact that a boy is able to lend a hand in farming whereas a girl would not be able to do all these tasks.
  • Excess taxes by overlords to finance wars etc.
  • Lack of rain caused droughts in turn causing poverty where a family could not pay dowry.

India has one of the lowest female to male ratios in the world with Punjab (Agricultural Economy) leading the count with 793 girls being born per every 1000 boys.  The farmers of Punjab are practicing this even to this day and suicide rates are also at a high in many states including Punjab.

Mr. Rao forget the effect from the race mixing perspective, this is a serious problem for the whole of India!  I was reading of some methods which were used by various communities and found them to be quite 'advanced' for their times. 


Edited by Rajputana - 02-Apr-2007 at 20:56
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 10:25
Don't you think that the analysis of pre-Independence period (under the British) and thereafter would matter much?
 
Can you say that sex ration had been better earlier than now?
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 12:24

Mr. Rao what are you trying to ask or prove, why dont you just clearly state your points?  Intermixing of castes has nothing to do with post-independence and that is why that article posted is from pre-independence British journals which shows the nature of various tribes of the area. 

I'm sure the situation was far worst during the times of the mughals.
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 20:06
It is only a question of interpretation. I have already mentioned earlier:
 

Take the question of widow-burning and witch- burning, etc., it was dealt with the British differently in the same period.

 

Female infracticide has been the extremity of anti-woman crime perpetuated by the vested groups in every society.

 

The difference is how a bullet is fired at a woman or a stove bursts - the victims is the same with the reasons behind.

 
Historically, certain social proceeses have thrusted or forced impact on members of society, when they were subjected to forced compulsion or external influencial factors.
 
Even today, in the day of secularism and modernity, if such acts are going on, they have to be analyzed critically.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 01:55
one of my friends from UP once said that this is the exact reason why a lot north indian poor people and villagers are dark skinned today, because thier man married lower cast women who are usally darker skinned then the upper casts, i dont know if this is true or not but it could an interesting point. 
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  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 07:16
Originally posted by Rajputana

Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

If you quote from the British period document, there there is two sides of the issue dealt with.You cannot say that dowry has been part of Indian society, as it is there in other societies also. Take the question of widow-burning and witch- burning, etc., it was dealt with the British differently in the same period.Female infracticide has been the extremity of anti-woman crime perpetuated by the vested groups in every society.The difference is how a bullet is fired at a woman or a stove bursts - the victims is the same with the reasons behind.
 
Mr. Rao I'm not saying Dowry is exclusive to India, nor is for that matter infanticide.  I am, however, leaning towards the theory that due to this system many tribes started to practice female infanticide because they were not able to pay dowry hence putting greatly out of proportion the male to female ration in the country HENCE not being able to acquire brides from the same race or tribe AND EVEN having to SHARE BRIDES amongst brothers (prominent amongst many people of India and also folk songs of Jats).
 
Trust me as a person of Indian origin I have no personal vendetta against the nation, just think that the truth should be told.
 
 
 
Wife sharing was done to get favours also and not due to infactide . There is one such  historical records available that the Rajput Rai Singh rathore sent his wife to the palace of Akbar and she returned with lot of gifts and new jagirs for her husband. Here the difference was that Rajput rai singh rathore shared his wife with Akbar and not with his own brother which you have mentined about Jats. Hence please see your own face in the mirror before writing bad about others.
 
There were many such incidents occured during Mughal period but only few surfaced and documented. Others were hidden by the bards by wrting the false stories of these warriors who got promoted by sharing their wives.
 
Rai Singh Rathor was one of largest servant in the army of akbar commanding 4000 soldiers under him. Now it is to be seen that who became white by colour and who became black by doing such acts.
 
 
 
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  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 12:25

AP Singh Gujjar, lol what does this have to do with female infanticide? Better yet lets have a reference for this claim you have purported;  Its a known fact that Mughal kings took daughters from Pathans, Iranians, Afghans and Rajputs during time of nauroz women were sent from as far as Herat and Khorasan -- so are all these people not warrior clans???

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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 19:57

yup mughals did take a lot of afghan and persian wives, and a lot of them acutally settled in present day kashmir, kashmir was where rich mughals and their families settled and also summer home for them.

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 22:36

Again and again, the discussion about race is going on in spite of its pseudo-scientific nature enjoying the nuances of colour of skin, eyes, nasal index, cranial index and so on, however, miscegenation is forgotten conveniently. Many times, the genetic evidences are relied upon nowadays as if it could prove and settle everything in historical interpretation. The genetic experts many times trace the origin to Africa and then shift to Asia. The moment they confront with monogenous or heterogeneous complications, they twist the results either way or any way to please their rulers (invariably religious affiliated or controlled).

 

A. P. Singh has mentioned about Rajaputs sharing their wives with the Moghuls. I am perplexed as to why such sharing was not mutual and reciprocating? Why the Rajaputs should have been so generous? Why such thing should happen?

 

In ancient Tamil studies, we find, the Romans giving away their women to Tamils along with wine and gold in getting Indian goods (c.300 BCE-100 CE). Later, we find, even the Greeks had been amorous in getting their daughters married to Indian Emperors (c.200 BCE)! Here, the position is that the Indian Kings and rulers were at their commanding position. But, the one way amorous diplomacy or political compulsion of the Rajaputs is intriguing. Incidentally, at the same time, the South Indian Kings had been very diplomatic in marrying off their daughters and sons to maintain stability.

 

Endogamous and exogamous interpretation in historical processes cannot give any definite results.

History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 01:47
lolLOL KV Ramakrishna you make me laugh sometimes, there is no evidence to your outrages claim that Romans gave away their women to tamils hahaha lolLOL that is one of the funniest things i have heard. i doubt Romans even met tamils because tamils are all the way in south indiaLOL and there is no evidence of roman ships going all the way to south india. i dont really know what history books you have studied Confused it all seems someone has made up everything you have read.
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 10:43
actually, kashmiri, if anything, any direct roman trade with india would probably have been by sea, and the tamils are at the southern tip. they have the most access to the sea, and is why during the chola period, they were such a great sea power.

and the Romans did meet the tamils, for there have been several roman coins found in archaeological digs all around the southern part of india.
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  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 10:49

Originally posted by K.V. Ramakrishna Rao

]A. P. Singh has mentioned about Rajaputs sharing their wives with the Moghuls. I am perplexed as to why such sharing was not mutual and reciprocating? Why the Rajaputs should have been so generous? Why such thing should happen?

 
Najaf Khan was related to the Persian Kings and came with his sister to the court of Muhammad Shah. He later served Shah 'Alam III.
  • Religion was a factor but more importantly for the same reasons why the afghans, pathans, jats and marathas were not offered the same reciprocating 'generosity', Mughals were stronger. Mughals had a far superior force (light canons etc.) and even though the Mughals hated battles in the desert, the Rajputs knew they would not be able to hold out thus forming alliances initially with Lodhi then Akbar and so on. Yet even in the face of such odds many Rajputs kept fighting such as the Sisodiya Ranas of Mewar who never compromised.  Rajputs of East India also fought and once defeated, many were forced to convert to Islam under the reign of Aurungzeb so Mr. Rao it had been a battle being fought by Rajputs against Rajputs for 200-300 years BUT, they revolted whenever a chance came along.
 
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 11:06

until u guys fully provide evidence that romans met tamils and traded their women to tamil, (which is impossible) i wont beleive a thing u guys say. It seems a lot of just make things up and its truly a sad thing because a person with little knowledge would beleive your out rages claims.

 
and PS. do you want to open a thread in the European section of this forum to ask them if romans gave their women away to tamilsLOL i bet they would laugh thier a** off.LOL
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 11:10
ok, forget the women thing for a second. you do atleast understand that there was trade between rome and southern india?
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 12:29
trade with  ofcourse is possible because i know the romans did go far as the persian gulf, after that i dont know if they went to india but yes trade was happening between india and rome, but this trade was mostly done through the traders of persian gulf which came to india often for gold and other goods.
 
but trade is what i am not arguing about. i am saying that guys like KV rama often just make up stuff that has no realstic basis (romans gave away their women to tamils) i simply dont understand who wrote these history books that KV is reading.


Edited by Kashmiri - 05-Apr-2007 at 12:30
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