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Help deciphering a recovered Tudor document?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help deciphering a recovered Tudor document?
    Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 10:53
Hello, I am a amateur historian and have recieved the following document which was recently recovered from the binding of a book. I am trying to transribe it and make sense of its content, and am very interested in ascertaining what events the pictures and text may relate to.
 
However I am having some difficulty in deciphering the text, and am getting rather stuck. I really need some help in understanding it, so if anyone can help I would be extremely grateful, thankyou very much in advance.
 
Here is the text and link to the picture
 
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 10:27
What part are you getting stick on? The transcribing or the contents? It looks readabe enough to me... picture is really a bit small to do it properly though...
 
Edit -  that should be stuck of course...Wink


Edited by Aelfgifu - 02-Apr-2007 at 10:28

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 15:14

hi there, well you're right in some ways, in that some of its readable - however, whilst I can read the odd line etc, I can't really get to grips with what the whole text is about in general!

 
I cannot read the second line or the first line of the second column for example :(
 
thanks for taking the time to reply
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 16:24

I've made a larger copy of the document HERE with enhanced contrast - it helps a bit on the reading (at least for my old eyes).

I believe its a mocking song (rhyming verses) about someone sucking up to the pope (probably).
These songs or rhymes were a popular tradition through centuries for ordinary people to mock those on higher levels of society.
I have a larger collection of them from the Danish tradition.

Maybe someone would have a go too,
here is what I read for a start.
Under the picture:
The hunt is up, the hunt is up
-- -- now ---  pape(pope) Jesus
our King(e) is go one a hunttynge (hunting)
Who --------------------------

First coloum:
-----  no idea -----------
hat had not to fly(e) the payne(pain?)
But wha(t) he had paid he ---- not be.
he muste be affoyied(?) agayne (again)
Kin--- to ---- -- ---  --- to tary (tears?)
Such was his power and might
Who ---- gold -- him he mighte (mightier?)
hold(e) though it were a game all right.
....be my guest to continue, its quite fun, and all you englishmen should have a better chance than me.
 
~ Northman
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 17:09
maybe between us we can work something legible.
 
   
 
 
 
 
First verse
 
The hunt is up, the hunt is up.
It is how --- pape Jesus our king is going a hunting.
Who
 
second verse;
 
---- --- and? to ---the ample? --- a
hat had not to feel the pain      --- ---
But what he had paid he might not be
he must be foiled? again
 
 
 
 
 
third verse
 
 Kinfolk to march a home for to tarry.
Such was his power and might,
Who ? Had? gold, to him he might hold.
Though it were against all right
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 18:09
Thankyou to you both so much, that really is so kind of you to take time in helping me with this
 
yes, I agree with your transcriptions so far and am working my way through the rest of the text armed with the trusty OED online!
 
For the next bit I have something like
 
To know God____ he gave a tot (foolish person)___
and to some a pluralytte (?)
but fyist with pence (with money in his hand?) they must off
or else it wolde not be....
 
Do you know of any links where I may read a little more about this style of text / the origins of this papal-mocking tradition?
 
again, thankyou so much for your kind help, I am massively appreciative
 
 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 19:02
There is no doubt that the author found inspiration to the song from a well know poet , William Gray of Reading (?-1557) who wrote the poem,
 
- but of course - that doesnt help to dechifer the document.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 19:48
yes, the hunting theme does theme to be prevalent throughout - the pictures at the top relate to this, and I'm assuming usage of the word 'halowing' in the title refers to the obsolete sense, as in a hunters call..
 
Do you think then, that this may be a sort of parody of this poem? or is a different connection to be made?
 
I'm finding this quite interesting now, at least the existence of that poem helps to date this piece - thankyou again for your insight
 
 
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 05:09
Originally posted by like_paper_cuts

Thankyou to you both so much, that really is so kind of you to take time in helping me with this
 
yes, I agree with your transcriptions so far and am working my way through the rest of the text armed with the trusty OED online!
 
For the next bit I have something like
 
To know God____ he gave a tot (foolish person)___
and to some a pluralytte (?)
but fyist with pence (with money in his hand?) they must off
or else it wolde not be....
 
Do you know of any links where I may read a little more about this style of text / the origins of this papal-mocking tradition?
 
again, thankyou so much for your kind help, I am massively appreciative
 
 
 
 
Or??
 
So? come? God what? he gave a thought? not?
and to some a -----
But thrift? with pence, they must be ----
or else it would not be
Therefore? ----- , with ---- ----
Played many a ---- raft?
----------, our money to him
------- he's? too? fast/daft?
 
 
To fault a pray to matters? of the pope
a pilgrimage from? place to place
Thus went  we? --- his coffers to fill?
to help/secure? a fall? from/to? grace
Great was his pride, on ---- to
All men would he promote.
Both King and Duke to their rebuke
Should bow to ----- his -----
 
 
        ( I'm wondering if some of the blanks are folks names ie)
  
  If he had Holdron????   as he began
   And free? as he was want to go
---- was to ---, within a while
He? must? have fled? his reach?
 
He kept his -----, with the thunder?
of excommunication
With cuts ---- cuts, to pike? each? ---
This was/has? a fatherly fashion????
 
 


Edited by Scorpian - 03-Apr-2007 at 05:30
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 17:39
Ha ha Scorpian - you have been editing while I compiled my thing here - now we can compare again.
I have merged our ideas and added some more possibilities of the meaning of some words.
 
 
1.
The hunt is up, the hunt is up
It is how pape(pope) Jesus
our King(e) is going a hunttynge (hunting)
Who --------------------------
 
2.
---- --- and? to ---the ample? --- a
hat had not to feel/fly(e) the payne(pain?)
But wha(t) he had paid he he might not be
he muste be fooled/foiled/affoyied(?) agayne (again)
 
3.
Kinfolk to march a home for to tarry.
Such was his power and might
Who ---- gold -- him he mighte (mightier?)
hold(e) though it were against/a gain/a game all right.
 
4.
So? come? God what? he gave a thought? not?
and to some a pluralytte?
But fyist/thrift? with pence, they must be display?
or else it would not be

4.a
Therefore? to imply? , with Scala? ----
Played many a ---- raft?
----------, our money to him
And Iron-----ded  us too fast/daft?
 
5.
To fault a pray to matters? of the pope
a pilgrimage from? place to place
Thus went  we? styl (still) his coffers to fill?
to deliver a soul(e) from/to? grace
 
6.
Great was his pride, on ---- to
All men would he promote.
Both King and Duke to their rebuke
Should bow to kysse (kiss) his fete
 
7.  
If he had Hold(e) on as he began
And free? as he was want to go
---- was to ---, within a while
He should have kyssed his bache/reach?
 
8.
He kept his holte, with the thunderb(olte)?
of excommunication
With cuts upon cuts, to pike? each? ---
This was/has? a fatherly fashion????
 
9.
Therefor so -- had dynied to ---
He thought he myght nocial?
Ty-- at/ar the last he was down(e)? raste(caske)?
Hys(his) peltynge? pardons and al(l)
 
10.
But fy--- he had nayn(none?), -- he dyd
And infinite fight/light of lams
with allmo-- he -------
But bull(e) and fkynnes of rams.
 
 
 
 
 Thanks Timotheus - I added fkynnes - I didn't know that word.
 


Edited by Northman - 04-Apr-2007 at 02:42
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  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 22:06
But bulles and fkynnes of rams (very last line) fkynnes being skins and bulles being bulls. 
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 04:23
 NorthmanSmile
       damn it LOL you beat me on the last two verse Wink
 
 
    Here's my interpretation though would seem this document was originally a full two page spread given most of the verse is missing. I hope Papercuts can put to some use our deciphers.
 
 
Therefore so?  --- had climbed? so? high?
He thought he might notfal? = not? fall?  
Apt ne = up in???  the loft?  he was do'wne = doing???? rafte = rafter????
His pelting???  pardons and all
 
But swift? he had none? pth = though? he did??????
And infinite fight? of lambs?
With all--- he rose-- he? let?
But bulls and skins of rams
 
 
 
pluralytte may be plurality?   (condition of occupying a given military rank)
 
I thought holte may have been pistol/firearm?
 
  Maybe some others will take up the challenge and correct our interpretations or fill in some of the blanksThumbs%20Up
 
    


Edited by Scorpian - 04-Apr-2007 at 05:44
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 07:07

Thankyou so much to everyone who has had a go at helping me with this, your insights have been invaluable!

I too have been deciphering the text to the best of my ability, and it seems that whilst some lines are fairly easy to read, others prove to be much more demanding. I think I now have quite a lot of the transcription done, the task is now to make sense of it!
 
Which is proving to be quite challenging, I'm off to route around and see if I can find out more about the historical context in which this was written, I imagine deciphering it is hard if you do not have this information
 
Thanks very much again for all your help
 
 
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 10:00
Thumbs%20Up good luck.
 
 
    
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 17:49
hi again, every transcription so far has transcribed the word on the second line as equivalent to modern 'Pope'
 
How does pope relate to Jesus in this context?
In what ways can we ascertain that this piece is 'mocking'?
 
I'm so confused Confused
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 03:16

     the poem possibly equates to religious mocking given the time period of Henry VIII of England (House of Tudor) and the breaking with Roman Catholic church.

 
pape = Catholic ???????
   
The word before pape possibly profane ?????????
             
  It is how ------   pape/pope/catholic jesus our king is going a hunting
 


Edited by Scorpian - 06-Apr-2007 at 03:23
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 03:43

I have examined the line again - and I think is says daye and not pope.
Maybe something like this instead:

It is now Pathrick? day, Jesus our king is going hunting

Maybe not Pathrick, but all days have a name - could be any name.

 

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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 04:37
  Maybe it isn't Jesus?Confused but possibly Refus/ Rufus as in King William Rufus
 
Read this article but also google search anything on William II and how he was killed; (not to feel the pain); assassinated/quick death? whilst out hunting. Also his stance against the church; (fall from grace/coffers to fill); robbing funds and creating new taxes etc. Read about Walter Tirel making good his escape and Henry making haste home; (kinfolk to march home for to tarry) to seize the treasury (gold/hold, though against all right) to gain the throne. Put it all together and equate the verse to events and still we'd probs have nought.Big%20smile
      Oh! and the pic could depict the crowning of Henry I
   
         We could relate almost anything and still be none the wiserEmbarrassed
 
  Hey! NorthmanWink
           looks like you said Patricks day with a lispLOL
(unfortunately this Rufus dude went a hunting and died on 2nd August Unhappy)


Edited by Scorpian - 06-Apr-2007 at 07:36
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 08:05
Scorpian, Northman - I owe you one. Or perhaps even two.
 
Today I have been reading a great deal about William II, and it does indeed seem that a great deal of this event may tie in with this piece! I'm extremely grateful for your insights, I could never have done this without your help!
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 08:50
   
  Thumbs%20Up  happy to help.
       
     
   Seems the word and google search of today is RufusWink
            
 Now you only need to put event to verse and you've completed your decipher.
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