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Bring the Brits Back Home

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Zagros View Drop Down
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bring the Brits Back Home
    Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 18:15
As far as the Bahrain thing goes - in 1970, Iran gave up Bahrain for the Greater and lesser Tonbs as well as Abu Mussa in an accord reached with Britain- this was when Britian could be considered a power broker in the region.
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Reginmund View Drop Down
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 18:37
Originally posted by Zagros

To address your post fully:



None of these improvements to the middle east you mention came to the middle east as a result of Colonialism/Imperialism. That they were simply Western and spread to the ME is completely irrelevant to your initial claim that all of these benefits are owed to colonisation.


Didyou know right up until the mid 19th century in europe the primary point of reference in medicine was the Ibn Sina, the mill was a Persian invention, Persians were first with the predecessor of the postal system and air conditioning and had mathematicians whose equations were way ahead of their time. From all of these the West has taken, so what of it? It's a natural progression and has nothing to do with colonialism and imperialism same as the spread of western knwoledge and tech to the ME.


Yes, I'm aware of Ibn Sina/Avicenna, of the Persians and their achievements throughout history, from the Acheamenids to the Sassanians and the importance of Persian scientists and poets to the Islamic caliphates.

That aside, your point as I see it is this; all the advances that the ME enjoyed during the age of imperialism could have been introduced without the Europeans occupying the region by force. Well, that will remain a hypothetical question, as it was they were indeed introduced by European colonists, and who knows what would have happened without them. I have my doubts though, I'm convinced it would at least have taken much longer to introduce changes, as they'd have to be introduced by potentates with far less power to force decisions.

Now, it might be time to get this thread back on track.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 19:54
OK, this is going around in circles, I accept your capitulation.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 07:40
Originally posted by Zagros

OK, this is going around in circles, I accept your capitulation.
 
Capitulation? I am being generous here, saving you from further embarassment. Tongue
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 06:41
Originally posted by Leonidas

what formal legal right or authority does Britain have in negotiating a border between Iran and Iraq?

 the gist i got from this (with allot of help in one of zagros's links) situation is that - its a disputed area with no recognized legal border line.  No one, not Iran or the UK have any clear cut  legal right to either operate UN missions or take prisoners.

 As far as im concerned the only equitable way forward is to negotiate the prisoners out and clear up the misunderstanding. Even better,  a temporary  line of operations, that has no legal bearing on any future Iraq-Iran agreed border can be marked out to prevent this from happening again.


 
better late than never.
 

Report reveals Iran seized British sailors in disputed waters

 
From The Times
April 17, 2008

Fifteen British sailors and Marines were seized by Iran in internationally disputed waters and not in Iraqs maritime territory as Parliament was told, according to new official documents released to The Times.

The Britons were seized because the US-led coalition designated a sea boundary for Irans territorial waters without telling the Iranians where it was, internal Ministry of Defence briefing papers reveal.

Documents released under the Freedom of Information Act detail for the first time the blunders last spring that led to what an all-party committee of MPs came to describe as a national embarrassment.

The captured 14 men and one woman were paraded on Iranian TV for a fortnight before being freed a year ago by a smiling President Ahmadinejad, who gave them new suits and bags of presents.

Newly released Ministry of Defence documents state that:

The arrests took place in waters that are not internationally agreed as Iraqi;

The coalition unilaterally designated a dividing line between Iraqi and Iranian waters in the Gulf without telling Iran where it was;

The Iranian Revolutionary Guards coastal protection vessels were crossing this invisible line at a rate of three times a week; It was the British who apparently raised their weapons first before the Iranian gunboats came alongside;

The cornered British, surrounded by heavily armed Iranians, made a hopeless last-minute radio plea for a helicopter to come back and provide air cover.

Iran always claimed that it had arrested the Britons for violating its territorial integrity.

Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, repeatedly told the Commons that the personnel were seized in Iraqi waters.

The MoD, in a televised briefing by Vice-Admiral Charles Style, the Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, produced a map showing a line in the sea called Iraq/Iran Territorial Water Boundary. A location was given for the capture of the Britons inside what the chart said were Iraq territorial waters. But the newly released top-level internal briefing accepts that no such border exists.

The report, addressed to Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, blames the incident on the absence of an agreed boundary and a failure to coordinate between Iraq, Iran and the coalition.

Under the heading Why the incident occurred, the report examines the history of a border that has been disputed since a treaty between the Persian and Ottoman empires in 1639.

Professor Robert Springborg, of the School of Oriental and African Studies, said yesterday that it was negligent to fail to clarify with the Iranians where the notional boundary was.

Using the Freedom of Information Act, The Times made requests about the events. The MoD released two documents, although parts are censored. One is the report to Sir Jock dated April 13, 2007, a week after the Britons returned home unharmed. It was compiled after they had been debriefed. The other is the communications log between the mother ship HMS Cornwall and the two seaboats used by the boarding party.

What they said

There is no doubt that HMS Cornwall was operating in Iraqi waters and that the incident itself took place in Iraqi waters . . . In the early days the Iranians provided us with a set of coordinates, and asserted that was where the event took place, but when we told them the coordinates were in Iraqi waters they changed that set and found one in their own waters. I do not think that even they sustain the position that the incident took place anywhere other than in Iraqi waters

Des Browne, Defence Secretary, House of Commons, June 16, 2007

Since the outset of the Iraq-Iran War there has been no formal ratified TTW [territorial waters] agreement in force between Iraq and Iran . . . In the absence of any formal agreement, the coalition tactical demarcation (the Op Line) is used as a notional TTW boundary. It is a US NAVCENT [US Naval Forces Central Command] construct based on an extension of the Algiers accord demarcation line beyond the mouth of the Shatt al-Arab [waterway] into the NAG [northern Arabian Gulf]. While it may be assumed that the Iranians must be aware of some form of operational boundary, the exact coordinates to the Op Line have not been published to Iran.

MoD report to the Chief of the Defence Staff under the heading: Why the incident occurred, dated April 13, 2007, released to The Times under the FoI

 


Edited by Leonidas - 17-Apr-2008 at 06:43
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Julius Augustus View Drop Down
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 06:57
do you guys have a video of the brits playing ping pong in iran? and that guy eating chelou kebab? 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 19:05
No I don't but:

March 28th 2007: UK reveals Iran dispute evidence
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6501555.stm

April 17th 2008: Times reveals UK's Iran dispute bullshit
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3761058.ece

Judging by that Times report it seems like the British government are dodging the issue and blaming the Americans for British sailors wandering into disputed waters.  Typical, it's everyone's fault except their own.

It's funny to see how people get so easily aggravated by propaganda. "Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me as much as you want, my head's buried in the sand and I will believe whatever you say because you're democratically elected, right and honorable." 

To such people, Zagros says: "Told you so... again..."

UK disregarding Iran calls for boat talks
Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:49:00
File photo shows sailor Faye Turney (l) talking to President Ahmadinejad in Tehran.
Iran has repeatedly called on Britain to hold talks on the possible return of its boats seized in disputed Arvand waters but to no avail.

One of the issues continually being kept from the British public is that we have on several occasions announced our readiness to return the boats confiscated in 2004 and 2007, Mehr News Agency quoted an informed source in Iran's Foreign Ministry as saying.

But, for some unknown reason, the British government has ignored our requests, the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

According to a report Thursday by the London daily Times, British troops, who were held by Iran for two weeks last year, were seized in waters that are not internationally recognized as Iraqi, contrary to what the UK government had claimed.

Based on accurate information from GPS systems, we provided a set of coordinates and announced that the 15 Britons had violated our territorial waters, the Foreign Ministry source said.

The source maintained that the recent report in the British newspaper has exposed the UK's 'deliberate manipulation of data' and Iran's righteousness in the dispute.

The recent report adds that the British sailors had apparently raised their weapons first before the Iranian gunboats pulled alongside their boats.

MT/GM/BGH


http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=52353&sectionid=351020101






Edited by Zagros - 20-Apr-2008 at 19:10
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Julius Augustus View Drop Down
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 03:50
thanks zagros, Ill try looking for one and posting it here, loved how the guy plays ping pong. 
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