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Brian J Checco
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Topic: Bring the Brits Back Home Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 10:36 |
As I'm sure you all know, Iranian forces have captured 15 British
military personnel in the Persian Gulf; 8 marines, and 7 sailors. The
British Government claims they are being held illegally. The Iranian
Government claims that they were in Iranian waters, and is further
investigating the matter. Some experts believe that the British sailors
are being held as bargaining chips, giving Iran some leverage to help
them get back the group of five Iranian military personnel (including
one Lieutenant General, according to US sources) captured in Iraq, and
currently being held by US troops.
Tony Blair, PM of the UKGB, has been quoted as saying "I hope we manage
to get them (the Iranian Government) to realize they have to release
them. If not, then this will move into a different phase, but at the
moment what we're trying to do is make sure that the diplomatic
initiative works."
The British government is planning to go public with the GPS
coordinates of the captured vessel at the time it, and the 15 sailors
and marines, were seized by Iranian forces at gunpoint.
Mohammad Ali Husseini, Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman, is quoted as
saying, "Media-run propaganda, and indiscreet and sometimes provocative
remarks will not resolve the issue of violation by British forces of
Iran's territorial waters."
The region of the Gulf in which the incident took place occurred in
contested waters, that have been claimed by both Iran and Iraq at
various points.
What do people think about the matter?
Edited by Brian J Checco - 28-Mar-2007 at 10:37
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 10:42 |
I wonder why the British have not released the GPS position of the Indian merchant ship that they boarded. Perhaps the history of Britain in the specific region needs to be examined to shed further light on the nature of their intentions. Iraqi fishermen attested to the British servicement being apprehended in Iranian waters to Iraqi forces.
Edited by Zagros - 28-Mar-2007 at 10:43
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 10:53 |
Originally posted by Zagros
I wonder why the British have not released the GPS
position of the Indian merchant ship that they boarded.
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See the above. They're already working on generating that information,
and are planning on releasing it if Iran does not comply with British
demands. I would expect that they haven't yet for diplomatic reasons;
if they release those coordinates, and they prove that Iran is
illegally holding the British sailors, it would be implying that Tehran
is lying, which could make things ugly and endanger the hostages.
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 10:56 |
Oh yeah, and Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, told Al Riyadh
news that Iraq believed that the British sailors were apprehended in
Iraqi waters, and should be released.
*AP
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Ovidius
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 10:58 |
I think thats its interesting as an event that truly highlights the complete lack of power Britain has within the Modern world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6501555.stmthe GPS evidence has been released. I don't know exactly what Britain is going to do... Diplomatic power? pah, whatever. The only way these marines will be released is if someone takes them back, which will be a job probably for the Marines/SAS/SBS. I really do not believe that there is any point negotiating on the matter. Although I'm one for peaceful answers to modern problems, the only answer here is force. It is getting ridiculous, British people are getting kidnapped frequently accross the World - from workers in Nigeria, to Journalists in Palletine, to Diplomats in Ethiopia and now MARINES WERE TAKEN FROM IRAQI WATERS BY IRAN??? This is just ridiculous. I hate to see such matters esculate, but there is no option but a show of force against Iran, which means airstrikes or some other form of action. In other news, if this is resolved well, it can only bode well for hte Labour party which is already in crisis.
Edited by Ovidius - 28-Mar-2007 at 10:59
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:06 |
GPS information could easily be manipulated (wouldn't be like Britain to doctor information now, would it? Iraq can deploy WMD within 48 hours anyone? ) and then reported by state controlled BBC, equally Iran still insists they were in Iranian waters. Most importantly though, eye witnesses report they were in Iranian waters when apprehended.
Britain has been linked with terrorist attacks inside Iranian territory so I for one can understand the sensitivity towards the royal navy's rubber dingies.
I hate to see such matters esculate, but there is no option but a show of force against Iran, which means airstrikes or some other form of action.
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I don't think Britain is in any position to carry out such a thing, considering its disposition. And this isn't the first time Britons or Americans have been apprehended after transgressing Iranian territory. But hey, it isn't Iran who has stationed troops THOUSANDS of miles from home on the back of colonial delusions of grandeur.
Edited by Zagros - 28-Mar-2007 at 11:10
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:06 |
I agree, Ovidius. I personally believe this is yet another example of
Iran's immature, bellicose foreign strategy. Apparently, they're
worried that the rest of the world will forget about them if they don't
initiate a new global foreign policy debacle every few weeks.
"The Holocaust didn't happen!"
"Give us nukes!"
"The US is the great Satan!"
"No, we won't give you back your Marines, Mr. Blair. You and the US are
poopyheads! Pay attention to us! We're a legitimate power too!"
Obviously, I'm satirizing here, but the belligerent stance of Iran's
foreign policy is causing a bit of unrest and resentment here in the
West. I'm of the opinion that those Brits ought to be recovered by any
means necessary, and if that means SAS and Delta Force going in, I'm
for it. Sure, it will be a major diplomatic crisis afterwards, but
those Brits seem pretty innocent to me, and I don't believe Iran has
any rights to be holding them like that. The GPS coordiantes only
strengthen my conviction that those Brits ought to be brought back home.
Cheers.
Edit- PS- It's easier to doctor the "eye-witness accounts" of a few
fishermen than it is to falsify globally broadcast information from a
National Government.
Edited by Brian J Checco - 28-Mar-2007 at 11:08
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Mortaza
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:08 |
Ovidius, be careful about yourself.
Iran will release them. Just taking her time.
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:12 |
Now, something just occurred to me. If Iraqi fishermen provided the
eye-witness accounts, then there are two possible rational conclusions
that one can draw here...
a) The Iraqi fishermen were in Iranian waters, but weren't apprehended, for some odd reason, since Iran is so concerned with protecting its territorial waters, or
b) the Brits were apprehended illegally in Iraqi waters, thus enabling the fishermen to actually see the event which transpired.
Personally, I am more prone to question the credibility of the Iraqi fishermen than I am the British government.
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Ovidius
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:14 |
I seriously doubt the Iranians will release the British personel. Come on, no one is expecting Britain to do ANYTHING except try to use diplomatic pressure. Britain is in crisis as far as military is concerned. What do we do, invade Iran? come on. At least it would be an interesting exit strategy from Iraq. But there really is no chance of real action against Iran, or at least thats what hte Iranians expect. it is a show of force from Iran, which they could quite easily win. oh and Zagros -
One is a women. I truly wonder what she is going through now.
Edited by Ovidius - 28-Mar-2007 at 11:15
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Mortaza
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:18 |
yes,It is an easy win. But, after they played with their toys, they will give them back.(do they have other chance? what will they do with marines?)
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:19 |
She is being released.
Umm, yea OK Brian. Do you have any idea how far the horizon stretches at sea? The Iraqi fishermen are well savvied up on where the borders are, and even at that, fishermen hardly amount to aggressive, armed foreign agents.
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:22 |
I'm confident they'll be brought home, Ovid. If diplomacy doesn't work,
Britain still posseses the some of the best Special forces in the
world...
Besides, if anything happens to those Sailors and Marines, world public
opinion will turn dramatically against Iran. I don't see that as being
the goal of this exercise on the part of Tehran; I think it's a show of
force, and once they make their point, those Brits will be back home.
It will be interesting to see how the Brits step up to the challenge, I
think. Because that's what this is, really: Iran is challenging the
West for control of the region.
Edit: Yes, I'm familiar with the vast visibility of open waters. I'm
also aware that you have to be pretty up-close to see the uniforms
being worn by people on decks, the nature of an arrest, and
pin-pointing the exact location that an event took place at would be
extremely difficult to determine by sight alone, given the lack of
spatial landmarks to create the context in which distance can be
measured. Thus, though it could happen 'on the horizon' doesn't mean
the fishermen could very accurately pinpoint where (spatially)
on the horizon it took place. Not only that, but unless conditions are
favorable, visibility at sea is fairly limited. A slight cloud cover,
or fog, could reduce visibility to a few hundred meters.
Edited by Brian J Checco - 28-Mar-2007 at 11:28
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Ovidius
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:24 |
Originally posted by Zagros
GPS information could easily be manipulated (wouldn't be like Britain to doctor information now, would it? Iraq can deploy WMD within 48 hours anyone? ) and then reported by state controlled BBC, equally Iran still insists they were in Iranian waters. Most importantly though, eye witnesses report they were in Iranian waters when apprehended. |
The GPS Information could be manipulated, but because you didn't read the report, you failed to understand that Iran gave two positions for the British people, one inside Iraqi Waters. The BBC is not State controlled, it is people controlled. Its a Corporation. The only power that the Government has over the BBC is the power to alter the amount people pay to receieve a TV Lisence. There is really very little control, except in certain periods where BBC has been advised not to report things - but that was NATIONAL coverage, not just the BBC that were adivised. The 48hr WMD scandal was uncovered BY THE BBC. What tehy reported on was the Dossier that was used by the GOVERNMENT to justify the War in Parliament. They did not report or uncover any evidence that this claim was true, they did the contrary and uncovered evidence to show the opposite. See the David Kelly Story.
Britain has been linked with terrorist attacks inside Iranian territory so I for one can understand the sensitivity towards the royal navy's rubber dingies. |
Terrorist attacks inside Iran? Whatever. Evidence please?
I don't think Britain is in any position to carry out such a thing, considering its disposition. And this isn't the first time Britons or Americans have been apprehended after transgressing Iranian territory. But hey, it isn't Iran who has stationed troops THOUSANDS of miles from home on the back of colonial delusions of grandeur. |
A. You would be suprised at how little of the British military is actually in action. Most is actually deployed in places like Germany and Bosnia. Most of our serious forces are still in Britain. Infact I just talked to a British Marine on Saturday, who has been put on standby with his regiment at their HQ. When British diplomats disapeared in Ethiopia, taken by Eritrean rebels, the SAS was sent to the area immediately. So we clearly have the troops available. B. It is not the first time that troops have been apprehended, no. But not normally for this type of thing. Colonian delusions of Grandeur? What are you talking about. Now the war in Iraq is probably a mistake, but i don't believe it had anything whatsoever to do with Colonial delusions, but to do with realistic choices made in and around the first meeting wtih President Bush and Tony Blair. What other Colonial delusions do we have? None really. We have troops in places like Belize, but for training purposes. We still keep forces in Bosnia and Kosovo - under a UN Mandate. We have troops in Germany still, but based on Agreements made at Yalta and in the 50years following the End of the War. Nothnig to do with Colonial Delusions. Maybe you should look up the Word Colonial in the Dictionary.
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Ovidius
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:26 |
Originally posted by Zagros
She is being released.
Umm, yea OK Brian. Do you have any idea how far the horizon stretches at sea? The Iraqi fishermen are well savvied up on where the borders are, and even at that, fishermen hardly amount to aggressive, armed foreign agents. |
How are Marines Aggrissive Foreign Agents. HMS Cornwall is in Iraqi Waters as part of the British Operation in Iraq. It is there with the Iraqi Governments Approval. They are not Armed Foreign Agents. They are Servicemen.
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:35 |
They are agents of the UK governemnt, they are armed and they aggressively stop and search vessels around and inside Iranian waters, according to the Iranian authorities - this is not the first time and they have just as much credibility as the UK government (which isn't all that much). I guess they have just had enough and thought a show of force was in order, perhaps make the imperialist forces think twice about transgressing Iranian territories or even wandering around near sensitive border areas - a stupid move in the first place.
And I did read the report and the two sets of information being handed over could easily be more lies, again the UK governemnt does not have much integrity so everything that comes from especially the foreign office and downing street must be taken with a pinch of salt.
Again, I wouldn't worry too much, a well deserved slap on the wrists and they'll be on their way home. which is more than what we can say for the Iranian hostages kidnapped in Turkey and Iraq.
Edited by Zagros - 28-Mar-2007 at 11:36
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:39 |
Originally posted by Zagros
She is being released.
Umm, yea OK Brian. Do you have any idea how far the
horizon stretches at sea? The Iraqi fishermen are well savvied up
on where the borders are, and even at that, fishermen hardly amount
to aggressive, armed foreign agents. |
Yes, I'm familiar with the vast visibility of open waters. I'm
also aware that you have to be pretty up-close to see the uniforms
being worn by people on decks, the nature of an arrest, and
pin-pointing the exact location that an event took place at would be
extremely difficult to determine by sight alone, given the lack of
spatial landmarks to create the context in which distance can be
measured. Thus, though it could happen 'on the horizon' doesn't mean
the fishermen could very accurately pinpoint where (spatially)
on the horizon it took place. Not only that, but unless conditions are
favorable, visibility at sea is fairly limited. A slight cloud cover,
or fog, could reduce visibility to a few hundred meters.
And, by the way "Colonial Delusions of Grandeur?" I'd liek to address that statement, piece-meal, if you don't mind.
Point A) "Colonial": Neither the United States or Britain has any
intention of making Iraq either a "State in the Union," or a
"Commonwealth Territory." Maybe we would liek to get in on some of the
oil action, and had the intention of toppling Saadam to establish a
more "customer friendly" regime in the region, but Colonial? Get real.
Point B) "Delusions of Grandeur": You're joking, right? Britain has never had "delusions of grandeur," but it has
had the largest colonial empire ever seen in world history. There's a
difference between "delusions of grandeur" and the "grandeur of
empire." If anything, it's Iran with the delusions of grandeur. No one
would care two figs about them if they didn't insist on bullying their
way onto the world stage every couple of months with some belligerent
action of anti-western intent.
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:39 |
Of course Britian still has colonial delusions of Grandeur, the problem is that the British Empire was not smashed, it receded - to such an extent today that it only encompasses England, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland and some irrelevant scatterings hither and thither. The realisation has not yet dawned on the aristocrats who still run this country's foreign policy, or perhaps they yearn for a return to that grandeur. Ther eis no other logical explanation for the poodle like behaviour of Tony Blair.
Edited by Zagros - 28-Mar-2007 at 11:41
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:44 |
That may be true, but many former British colonies such as, oh, I don't
know, America, Australia, and Canada, occupy two whole continents and
dictate world events, much in accordance with the desires of Britain,
and for the mutual gain of all named parties. The British Empire may no
longer exist in name, but trust me, the "Anglo Empire" still very much
rules the world. Not quite the same can be said for the former Persian
empire, now can it?
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Ovidius
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 11:47 |
Originally posted by Zagros
They are agents of the UK governemnt, they are armed and they aggressively stop and search vessels around and inside Iranian waters, according to the Iranian authorities - this is not the first time and they have just as much credibility as the UK government (which isn't all that much). I guess they have just had enough and thought a show of force was in order, perhaps make the imperialist forces think twice about transgressing Iranian territories or even wandering around near sensitive border areas - a stupid move in the first place. |
There is still NO evidence that they are in Iranian Waters or have ever been in Iranian Waters. The HMS Cornwall Operates in Iraqi Waters. Its main role is to protect British Soldiers, by stopping Weapons from getting into Iraq. Imperialist forces - Whatever.
And I did read the report and the two sets of information being handed over could easily be more lies, again the UK governemnt does not have much integrity so everything that comes from especially the foreign office and downing street must be taken with a pinch of salt. |
We will see. Pretending that the Foreign offices does not have integrity is rather silly. You clearly don't understand about the pressures such institutions are under to tell the truth. If it was found out that they based diplomatic negotiation and press releases on lies, it would cause a scandal in the UK. In Iran however, they have a seriosly strong propaganda machine and no such scandal would occurr. Its not easy for a British Government institution to Lie and get away with it. Why do you have the ability to say the Government has no integrity - because the times they have lied, they have been caught out by the Powerful and well organised media.
Again, I wouldn't worry too much, a well deserved slap on the wrists and they'll be on their way home. which is more than what we can say for the Iranian hostages kidnapped in Turkey and Iraq. |
Slap on the Wrists. We'll also see about that.
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