Cats - Large and Small

I thought to create this topic to see if any of you were better informed than me.

Do you know anyone that was killed by a lion or any other cat as in an assassination or murder? (Gladiators don't count).

Have these aforementioned cats been ever used as tools of riding?

Who were the first modern Europeans to sight large cats and where (from the Age of Exploration, let's say)?

When were cats extinct in Assyria (as we can clearly see Assyrian kings hunting lions and others on walls)? I have heard that today Mesopotamia is free of them?

Did the Pharaohs hunt large cats (or could they)? I seem to have heard that there have been found Egyptian paintings of lions too?

Good. An answer!

Well, you say that Mesopotamia hosts larger cats even nowadays. It might be so, I haven't been there (lol) but I am quite sure that the lions that lived there then are extinct. Isn't it so? Interesting...

Oh and about Egypt, did the lions gradually start moving southwards or just became extinct in the north?

Has any notable source in history mentioned large beasts that are comparable to large cats ? (I could imagine Europeans in the jungle sighting tigers do so).

Originally posted by Knights can elaborate if you wish

Do so then:d... Thanks,

Then, if you say they ran south, would the feelings of the southern peoples change as more lions came? Were they two (lions and peoples) ever friends? Did people think they were gods or something down there? And did then the ferocity change their minds?

Well, I was mostly talking of the Egyptian earlier times when the Sahara wasn't yet so large... During those times, I believe grasslands occupied the most of Africa.

A good reply. Thanks... much better understanding in my mind.

Yet the question remains whether the so called big cats are mostly friendly or not. But I'd like to come to this by locations. First of all, as far as i know, the only cats living in south America are pumas, jaguars and some other small. ones. I have seen engravings and pictures of Mayan and Incan cities in which there are mentionings of these animals by drawings and such. Also, the temples in the Mayan cities were often named as the Temple of the Jaguar or so on. Why is that so? Is the jaguar such a larger animal or just the most dangerous beast of the jungles there (leaving out snakes)?

Now, in the movie, Last Samurai we see that the Samurai sees in the American a thing I think of as a tiger. I am however not sure that tigers lived in Japan or that any large cats did. Could you help me here as well?

I have also heard that skeletons of lions and such cats have been found on the Peloponnesian. When did they become extinct there and why? Was the hunting so rapid? I am quite sure that even some mythological tale included one of these lions.

When I come to think of the South East Asian areas, the large jungles bring into my mind the Tiger once more and I am sure that the people there were frightened of them? But yet, they didn't massively kill them up to recent eras? Very interesting.

Oh, and what about the Russian areas. The Amur Tiger and such creatures are common (not so very much anymore). The areas are however densely populated and I don't believe they caused much trouble?

China has always sticked to dragons more than cats, I think. Although I also seem to remember that the Snow Leopard is a common feature of Northern China, isn't it?

Originally posted by rider Yet the question remains whether the so called big cats are mostly friendly or not. But I'd like to come to this by locations. First of all, as far as i know, the only cats living in south America are pumas, jaguars and some other small. ones. I have seen engravings and pictures of Mayan and Incan cities in which there are mentionings of these animals by drawings and such. Also, the temples in the Mayan cities were often named as the Temple of the Jaguar or so on. Why is that so? Is the jaguar such a larger animal or just the most dangerous beast of the jungles there (leaving out snakes)?

Firstly, big cats can definitely be friendly to humans, through affection. However, this only really applies to hand-reared cats that have become very reliant and trusting of their caretaker. Nevertheless, I must stress that big cats are still wild animals, and can never be properly trained. They have the potential to kill at any given time.
Secondly, here are some cats of South America:
- Jaguar Panthera Onca
- Cougar Felis Concolor
- Ocelot Felis Pardalis (or Leopardus Pardalis depending on opinion)
- Jaguarundi Felis Yagoauroundi
- Margay Cat Felis Wiedi
- Andean Cat Felis Jacobita
- Geoffrey's Cat Felis Geffroyi
- Kodkod Felis Guigna

The Jaguar was an integral part of Meso-American mythology and customs. The Olmecs, Mayans and Aztecs are all associated with this regal beast of the jungle. Numerous epigraphs have been discovered in South America depicting 'were-jaguars', similar to the half animal/half human symbolic statues of the Ancient Egyptians. Artefacts and monuments also portray Jaguars in a mythical and revered light.
For the Olmecs, the Jaguar not only represented power and majesty, but also fertility. One god (the Maize god) was in the form of a jaguar.
For the Maya, the Jaguar was a more fearsome and revered figure. As darkness is the jaguar's element, the cat was synonymous with darkness and the underworld. One such god was Xbalanque.
For the Aztecs, Jaguars epitomised strength, stealth and power. In Aztec Mythology, the Jaguar symoblised the God of the heart of the mountain - Tepeyollotl, as well as Tezcatlipoca. He was associated with a wide range of concepts such as the night, the north, the earth, obsidian, enmity, discord, rulership, divination, temptation, sorcery, beauty, war and strife. Below is Tezcatlipoca.

An elite warrior class was centered around the Jaguar:



The shaman priests of the Meso-American cultures used the Jaguar to symbolise everything from power and majesty, to fertility and fear.
In mythology, the Jaguar accompanied shamans in between the earth and spirit realm, and was known as the nagual. The Jaguar was chosen because the shaman was required to "dominate the spirits, in the same way as a predator dominates its prey" - the Jaguar fulfilled this role.
Here is a picture of the jaguar throne at Chichen Itza:

The Maya had a temple known commonly as the Temple of the [mask of] the Jaguar. Some of it is underground now, and it has jaguar figures on it.

The reason they built this is fairly obvious judging from their regard for the jaguar (as stated above).

The Jaguar is the supreme predator of South America (other than humans of course). It as adapted to a range of environments ranging from pampas (grassland) to high mountains, to the rainforest. It is quite large and stocky (Up to 160kg, 350 lbs), and has extremely powerful forearms and chest. The jaguars jaws are exceptionally strong too considering they kill their prey by puncturing the skull with their canines. I would imagine they are among the most dangerous beasts in South America, rivaling the Caiman, Anaconda, Fer de lance snake, Poison dart frogs, and the jungle itself!
Jaguar, normal and melanistic:



NOTE: An interesting read regarding this is the book "Temple" by Matthew Reilly. Although it is fictitious, there is mentioning of giant mutant jaguars (black) called 'Rapas'. Though not real, the book is extremely entertaining.
Also, the species name of a Jaguar is onca and there is a common piece of Incan clothing called an 'Onka' - does anyone know which may have come from which?

Originally posted by Rider Now, in the movie, Last Samurai we see that the Samurai sees in the American a thing I think of as a tiger. I am however not sure that tigers lived in Japan or that any large cats did. Could you help me here as well?

I have not seen the Last Samurai, but I do know that Big Cats never lived in Japan. They have feral cats nowadays, but never did any inhabit the region of Japan. The closest any came to were the Amur (Siberian) tigers of Manchuria, though none could bridge the gap of water.

Originally posted by Rider I have also heard that skeletons of lions and such cats have been found on the Peloponnese. When did they become extinct there and why? Was the hunting so rapid? I am quite sure that even some mythological tale included one of these lions.

Lions definitely roamed the Balkans, Greece and Peloponnese. They became extinct here by about 100AD due to use in Roman arenas, over hunting for game/food/pelt and human improachment. So yes, hunting was rapid in the time of Roman expansion. These are known as the European Lion Panthera Leo Europaea, and preyed on aurochs, elk, deer, pigs and other ungulates (hoofed animals)
Many tales involving lions come to mind (such as Lion, Witch, Wardrobe) but the one you may be thinking of is the Tale of Androcles and the lion, by Aesop as a part of his moral-based fables:

Androcles
"A slave named Androcles once escaped from his master and fled to the forest. As he was wandering about there he came upon a Lion lying down moaning and groaning. At first he turned to flee, but finding that the Lion did not pursue him, he turned back and went up to him. As he came near, the Lion put out his paw, which was all swollen and bleeding, and Androcles found that a huge thorn had got into it, and was causing all the pain. He pulled out the thorn and bound up the paw of the Lion, who was soon able to rise and lick the hand of Androcles like a dog. Then the Lion took Androcles to his cave, and every day used to bring him meat from which to live. But shortly afterwards both Androcles and the Lion were captured, and the slave was sentenced to be thrown to the Lion, after the latter had been kept without food for several days. The Emperor and all his Court came to see the spectacle, and Androcles was led out into the middle of the arena. Soon the Lion was let loose from his den, and rushed bounding and roaring towards his victim. But as soon as he came near to Androcles he recognised his friend, and fawned upon him, and licked his hands like a friendly dog. The Emperor, surprised at this, summoned Androcles to him, who told him the whole story. Whereupon the slave was pardoned and freed, and the Lion let loose to his native forest."
Moral - Gratitude is the sign of noble souls.

Originally posted by Rider When I come to think of the South East Asian areas, the large jungles bring into my mind the Tiger once more and I am sure that the people there were frightened of them? But yet, they didn't massively kill them up to recent eras? Very interesting.

Yes again, the people of South East Asia have great reverence and respect for the tiger, despite the fear accompanied. Tigers have been a part of their cultures for thousands of years, and they have developed a love hate relationship. While the tiger is a beautiful majestic creature, it also kills the villagers. When the honey collectors go out into the marshes, they would be followed along by a priest. This priest would undertaken many strange and unusual practices and customs to ward off the tigers. It is a very dangerous job to this day, with some villages losing up to 10 people a year to tigers.
In some South East Asian cultures they discovered that if you put a mask of a face on the back of your head the tiger would not attack. Tigers are stealth/ambush predators who only attack/pursue if their prey cannot see them. This means they could not attack from in front or behind the workmen with masks. After a while though the cunning tigers figured it out and several unsuspecting villagers copped the wrong end of a tigers bite - and were eaten on the spot. New methods are always being come up with.
Mass killing of tigers has only begun in the modern era with 1) the invention of gunpowder/firearms (makes it easier to hunt) and 2) supposed uses for Chinese medicine. These are two serious threats to the tiger, and their numbers have fallen dramatically in the past 100 years, to the brink of extinction in some cases. There are about 300 Sumatran Panthera tigris sumatrae remaining, and under 100 South China Tigers Panthera tigris amoyensis in the wild. The plight of the tiger does not look bright.

Originally posted by Rider Oh, and what about the Russian areas. The Amur Tiger and such creatures are common (not so very much anymore). The areas are however densely populated and I don't believe they caused much trouble?

Amur tigers Panthera tigris altaica are now limited to the wilderness of Siberia and Manchuria, due to habitat destruction and hunting. They are very beautiful and huge creatures:

(Cub)
The Amurs are not known for their human predator-prey interaction as much as the Bengals of India. These are legendary at their hunting skills of humans.

Originally posted by Rider China has always sticked to dragons more than cats, I think. Although I also seem to remember that the Snow Leopard is a common feature of Northern China, isn't it?

Yes China is more of a dragon sort of place, but cats are present in China. The distribution of Snow Leopards (my favourite animal) does extend into Western (arid, mountainous) China. China hosts more than two-thirds of the estimated population of snow leopards Uncia uncia in the wild. The Snow leopard, the most beautiful creature, in my eyes:

I should post some images of when the two extraordinary Snow Leopard cubs were born at the zoo...I got some behind the scenes pictures before they were displayed in public. I have some others of me and the Snow Leopards in their dens...might post them too...

Well, hope that gave you a bit of an insight into some of the questions you posed Rider.

- Knights -



Edited by Knights - 22-Mar-2007 at 06:05

OK, do not fear Rider, I have not missed your post, merely 'stuck' on it. I have gone through "The Glove" by Friedrich Schiller, and it mentions lions, leopards and tigers as you stated. However, your query was who the King Francis specified actually was...
Now, I have been looking intently around the internet but have found no such proof of it being Francis I or II of France, nor Holy Roman Emperor Francis. Consequently, I shall continue looking and let you know when I come across something.
Do you think this "King Francis" could just be a legend or mere fictitious personality used by Schiller in a poem?

OK well, here are my ideas...If he was fictitious then he would most certainly have had access to lions, leopard and tigers
On the other hand, if King Francis was a real person -and a king at that-, his time period and location would have a lot to do with whether he had access to lions/leopards/tigers. Now let's suppose he is from Europe (France/Germany/Italy/Hungary) - does this sound about right? If this is so, and he was the ruler of a state, then it is certainly viable that he had lions/leopards/tigers in his court.
The time period just effects whether wild animal establishments had been developed and widely used.
Henry III of England was the a pioneer in the practice of keeping wild animals in captivity, and built London's prominent 'Tower Menagerie' in 1235AD. Another of the pioneers was Frederick II Holy Roman Emperor. Frederick had a great love of animals and the natural world. He developed the mobile Menagerie which he took around Italy and Europe. The collection included exotic animals such as Cheetahs, Elephants, Lynx, Giraffes, Leopards, Wolves and Antelope.
In saying this, I believe this 'King Francis' could have imported or had given to him as a gift, lions/leopards and tigers. The distribution of these big cats was far wider than at the present day, so access would have been easier.
In conclusion;
- If King Francis was a made-up personality, there is no doubt about whether he could have had lions, leopards and tigers in his court (there is no limit to Schiller's imagination)
- If King Francis was a real person, the ruler of a dominion, then depending if he lived Middle Ages onwards, and in Europe/Eurasia/Africa even, then he had access to the big cats.

Hope this fulfills your request Rider,

- Knights -

Yes, more so the first two (HRE Francis I and II), as mobile and established zoos (menageries and private collections) were more common in Europe around their time, which is about 200 years later than Francis I of France. Being Kings, the expense was no problem, more the accessibility to lions/leopards/tigers. It is still highly possible, as large collections were brought from North Africa and the Middle East to Europe, for sale.  

Nice post

Originally posted by Jams Those definitions seem always to fluctuate a bit over time.

Very true, they are always coming up with new classification criteria, but always founding new species/subspecies.etc.

Originally posted by Jams Some new DNA tests, as I'm sure you know, suggest the Puma and Cheetah are related, fx. (I don't really have any sources ready.)

Yes I�ve heard a bit about these DNA tests, and how they are looking for nucleotide similarities�something along those lines. I know they have tried to use comparative anatomy to class them, though I believe this method is flawed to an extent.

Originally posted by Jams Usually, the Neofelis (now there's two species, it seems) are considered intermediate cats(not because of size, they're really very small) and the Snow leopard "almost" a big cat, some place it in the panthera catagory. + the study I mentioned created a slew of new genus ( I Don't know the plural ) like catopuma

Intermediate cats as a generic or scientific term? Because, �big cats� can be generic too, in people calling pumas, cheetahs and snow leopards �big cats�. I have a few books and journals which class the Snows as Panthera uncia, while other stick to Uncia uncia.

Originally posted by Jams I'm sure we havent heard the last word yet

Definitely not! There will always be debate about classification, just like the large scale one on classification of Red (Lesser) Pandas in the family Pryconidae (Raccoons and their relatives � a fairly informal family) or a separate one with itself and the Giant Panda, Ailuridae. There are numerous others as you would know.
Oh, and is Catopuma the genus of the Bay and Asian Golden Cat?

Originally posted by Jams Another thing, we used to have two Snow Leopards at our local zoo, and they were next to two Leopards. The Snow Leopards were just as big as the Leopards, in fact, they seemed BIGGER - I saw them right next to each other. Maybe the fur made them look bigger than they really were, and I'm sure the body of the Leopards were somewhat "deeper", so they were maybe heavier, but they're pretty big. Unlike the Clouded Leopard - it's much much smaller. Much smaller than a Lynx, actually.

Some subspecies of Leopard are smaller than Snow Leopards, but as we know, everything varies�Cougars (Pumas, Mountain Lions � whatever you please) as a general rule are actually bigger than the Leopard! The Snow�s fur can be a bit deceiving, 4-5 inches in some places (belly?). And yes, I think the Clouded Leopard outweighs the Iberian, but the Eurasian Lynx is definitely bigger.

Originally posted by Jams Clouded Leopard

Beautiful coat pattern isn�t it? We had a very well trained (not domesticated) Clouded Leopard at the zoo � Nona � and she loved to go on walks on the lead, in the morning

- Knights -