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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: It's a plane? It's a bird?... No it's a T
    Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 15:07
Spartukus
Language is a vital part for a nation,but not the basic criterium for qualifying a specific population into a specific nation.Just because the majority of Asia Minor Hellens were speaking Turkish,this does not make them Turkish.Just because some Bulgarians speak Hellenic,this does not mean that they are Hellens.Just because one speaks Serbian ,this does not make him nessecarily a Serbian.
 
Greeks in Turkey wern't speaking Turkish as a mother tongue, this was always Greek, speaking a second, third etc language doesn't change what you are.
 
 
Spartukus
Ugric is the language of the Magyars who came from the steppes.Maybe modern day Ugric,due to it's different historical development from the Turkic languages of Middle East and Central Asia,seem different.But let's not forget that the Hungarians were under Austrian rule for quite some time.What i mean is that since the Magyars followed a different historical development in a different historical environment ,that of Europe's,than that of the Turkic populations of Asia,makes that difference more natural.
 
So what's the problem?
 
Some Hungarians in history could have been Turkic but today they're not.
 
However, Turkic people today identify as Turkic and speak Turkic language.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 15:23
Greeks in Turkey wern't speaking Turkish as a mother tongue, this was always Greek, speaking a second, third etc language doesn't change what you are.
 
You are quite wrong here.Many Hellens from Asia Minor,in fact, spoke only Turkish.
 
However, Turkic people today identify as Turkic and speak Turkic language.
 
Yes,but Turkic people are not nessecarily Turks.
 
 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 16:12
Your saying that these Greeks didn't speak Greek? the only way then they could have kept their identity is by not becomming muslim.
 
Turkic people are ofcourse Turks, Turks of Turkiye are only Turks because the people were their national root lies by this I mean, language, identity, history, origins, culture is Central Asia. They're Turks because those that came were Turks they bought the identity with them.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 16:24
Your saying that these Greeks didn't speak Greek? the only way then they could have kept their identity is by not becomming muslim.
 
What i am saying is that among the 1.000.000 + Hellens,there were many who did not speak Hellenic ,but Turkish. They were exhcanged as Christian Orthodox,according to the Lausanne Treaty.
 
Turkic people are ofcourse Turks, Turks of Turkiye are only Turks because the people were their national root lies by this I mean, language, identity, history, origins, culture is Central Asia. They're Turks because those that came were Turks they bought the identity with them.
 
Modern day Turks are a mixture of people.Selcuks and Ottomans  were Turks,but ,although Turkic, the Kushans were not Turks,nor the Avars,nor the Heruls,nor the Huns,nor the Magyars etc......
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 16:49
Spartukus
Modern day Turks are a mixture of people.Selcuks and Ottomans  were Turks,but ,although Turkic, the Kushans were not Turks,nor the Avars,nor the Heruls,nor the Huns,nor the Magyars etc......
 
That's why I clearly said, today's Turkiye Turks "national root", there are ofcourse a mixture of people but as a nation the root of being Turk lies in Central Asia originally, it's because of these Turks that they are today Turks.
 
Magyars, Avar's may not have been but Huns were.


Edited by Bulldog - 28-Feb-2007 at 16:49
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 16:54
Magyars, Avar's may not have been
 
Hence you confirm my argument that there are Turkic populations,who are not Turks.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 17:07

So your saying Magyars were Turkic?

But nobody is claiming that Magyars today are Turks or Turkic because they're obviously not.
 
Bulgars are Turkic, Bulgars of Volga Bulgaria still are however, the state of Bulgaria is not Turkic today yet historically Bulgars are Turkic and in Volga Bulgaria still are. However, we cannot call Bulgarians of Bulgaria Turkic.
 
This is what I have already stated. Turkic people's today are Turkic people, those who are Turkic without controversy.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 17:22
I am saying that there is a distinction,as well as relevance, between the terms Turk and Turkic.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 17:39
Why? if the people your referring to don't what does it matter if you called them Turkic, Alien or cikrut.
 
Are Greeks, Greek, Hellen, Roum, Yunan, Ionian...does it really matter what non-Greeks call Greeks, what would matter is if Greeks had these terms.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 22:32

Looks like this is turning into a new topic... the Turk Empires are forgotten.

Anyway, my opinion is that there are four major "types" of Turks nowdays:
 
1. People, who have Turk origin... whose ancestors have comen from Central Asia, and still speak a language that is a branch of the greater Turk language family (Uzbeks, Turkish, etc.).
 
2.People, some or all of whose ancestors had Turk origin (gens), but speak a language that is of a different origin (Bulgaria - still have few words of Turk origin, but the language is generally Slavic).
 
3.People, who do not have any Turk origin, but speak  Turk language and consider themselves Turks (I suppose that there is a percentage of the population in every Turk country).
 
4.People, who do not have any Turk origin and do not speak Turk language, but because of some reason want to be considered or pretend to be Turks (This is a bit strange "type/group" but I think that it is all right Wacko)
 
These "types" exist in every national, etnic, etc. groups, I do not divide only the Turks this way.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 22:50
I forgot to add that a person is a Turk, Indian, Zulu, etc.... only if he wants to be one. In case, he says that he is something else - he is something else. The only exception is a case when a person was raised in a certain society, all of his gens are 100% the gens of this society, he speaks the language of this society and he is culturally, religiously, etc. influenced by this society. Then, in my opinion, this person can not pretend to be anything else. An example: an Eskimo, (100% genetically Eskimo, raised among Eskimos) pretending to be ...let's say  Iranian... too much.Tongue
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 00:50
Originally posted by Onogur

I forgot to add that a person is a Turk, Indian, Zulu, etc.... only if he wants to be one. In case, he says that he is something else - he is something else. The only exception is a case when a person was raised in a certain society, all of his gens are 100% the gens of this society, he speaks the language of this society and he is culturally, religiously, etc. influenced by this society. Then, in my opinion, this person can not pretend to be anything else. An example: an Eskimo, (100% genetically Eskimo, raised among Eskimos) pretending to be ...let's say  Iranian... too much.Tongue
 
Blood is the most important thing makes somebody a Turk, but I donot want to emphesise that I donot want to disappiont some of our pan-turkist friends, who may have blond hair and blue eyes
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 03:51
Why? if the people your referring to don't what does it matter if you called them Turkic, Alien or cikrut.
 
 
Are Greeks, Greek, Hellen, Roum, Yunan, Ionian...does it really matter what non-Greeks call Greeks, what would matter is if Greeks had these terms.
 
 
It does matter in a degree,what other people think of you,the names they give you.For example,you continue to use the term "Greek",but in my country this is non-exinstant.We call ourselves Hellens, Ελληνες, and our country Hellas ,Ελλάς  from the Ancient Years(with the exception of the Byzantine era).But we still are known as "Greeks".
 
I do not believe that all Turkic populations call themselves Turks.Neither all the natives of the areas from which they passed ,Central Asia,actually call them Turks.Afgans or Chinese never called Kushans Turks,and i doubt if Kushans did call themselves so.
 
 


Edited by Spartakus - 01-Mar-2007 at 03:53
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 06:33
Spartakus
It does matter in a degree,what other people think of you,the names they give you.For example,you continue to use the term "Greek",but in my country this is non-exinstant.We call ourselves Hellens, Ελληνες, and our country Hellas ,Ελλάς 
 
So how does it matter, all that matters is how you refer to yourselves, how on Earth can non-Greeks determine who can and can't qualify to be a Greek huh Confused
 
 
Spartukus
I do not believe that all Turkic populations call themselves Turks.Neither all the natives of the areas from which they passed ,Central Asia
 
Your obviously missing the point, it really doesn't matter what you do or don't believe.
 
Everybody in Central Asia isn't Turkic, Tajik's, Afgan's etc are not. Those that are Turkic are Turkic, Tajik's call Ozbek Turks, Turks, in Iran Turkic people are called Turks.
 
Shinai
Blood is the most important thing makes somebody a Turk
 
Nope, blood has very little to do with anybodies ethnicity, 10% of the people living in the remanants of the Mongol Empire have Gengiz Khan's gene's, are they all Mongols then.
 
Onogur
I forgot to add that a person is a Turk, Indian, Zulu, etc.... only if he wants to be one. In case, he says that he is something else - he is something else.
 
Exactly. We have to stop trying to classify people and put them into categories, society and identity are very complex matters, if somebody was bought up let's say X but five generations back all his descendants were of nation Y but today his family live in Nation X, speak its language as mother tongue, mixed and married with people from nation X and bought up their kids as being of Nation X, then that person will identify as Nation X.
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Posts: 192 		  Quote Mordoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 10:22
Blood is the most important thing makes somebody a Turk
 
 
I Disagree with this statement , sounds like a dogma .
 " How glad (for someone) to say I AM A TURK " .
 
Anyone who feels himself/herself as a Turk , is a Turk .


Edited by Mordoth - 01-Mar-2007 at 10:24
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 11:05
Obviously the discussion is losing any form of interest as we are trying to compare apples (modern nation-state, citizenship) and oranges (ethnico-linguistic origins) and banana as well (representation of the self). Thus there are three ideal-typic references toward which each of us is tending more or less.

That said I reiterate my opinion, for clarity sake we should make a difference between Turk and Turkic. Even if, as Bullbog says, it mostly a non-Turk(ic) distinction, the fact is that unfortunately most of mankin and of the forumers are not blessed by Turkishness. Moreover we are using a non Turkic language to communicate... so.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 12:21
Darn English, why isn't French the global super language how could they let English overtake.

Edited by Bulldog - 01-Mar-2007 at 12:23
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 14:00
Originally posted by Bulldog

 
So how does it matter, all that matters is how you refer to yourselves, how on Earth can non-Greeks determine who can and can't qualify to be a Greek huh Confused
 
 
I said it matters in a degree.Not totally,but in a degree yes.
 
 
  
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

Everybody in Central Asia isn't Turkic, Tajik's, Afgan's etc are not. Those that are Turkic are Turkic, Tajik's call Ozbek Turks, Turks, in Iran Turkic people are called Turks.
 
We are speaking English,aren't we?I never said that all in Central Asia are Turkic.What i said is that native people of Central Asia,such as Afgans and Chinese,who are obviously non-Turkic ,did not call a Turkic triber,such as the Kushans,Turks.Neither Kushans called themselves Turks.
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 18:43
Originally posted by Bulldog

Darn English, why isn't French the global super language how could they let English overtake.


Yeah! Lets do it but this time in the second battle of Lepanto the French fleet will take the Christian ships by surprise.
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 19:05
Spartakus, Turk was a common generic name for Turkic peoples in Central Asia from the post Gokturk era up to the Soviet expansion into the region.
 
Maharbbal, why the  fuss over a ic?  Are we to start calling say Arabs in north Africa North African Arabics. LOL 
Sometimes i think it would have been better if the republic of Turkey was called the Republic of Anatolia. 
Usually the meaning of "Turk" is known within the context of its use.
 
Shinai, in my opinion you have a sickness.  However, please can you tell me what kind of blood that makes someone a Turk is.  Sakha?  Khakas?  Altay?  Uyghur?  Khazak?  They are all Turk(ic) yet have considerable differences in genetic make up.  So what is this blood that makes someone a Turk.
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